From:	Kintaro Oe [kabael@bu.edu]
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 5:01 AM
To:	blue_planet@lists.MPGN.COM
Subject:	[BLUE PLANET] - genlifting...

I was wondering if anyone else had explored the possibiliets of
genlifting/uplifting other animals aside from cetaceans? Such as monkeys or
other apes.

Just wondering, because the descriptions in the book reminded me of David
Brin's Uplift novels.

kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping

Sad notes-			In this world
we're all bamboo's children		we walk on the roof of hell,
in the end.			gazing at flowers.
	-Basho				-Issa

Mcguffin Group -  http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html
I love messages!  ICQ #24193592  kabael@bu.edu
 
	

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From:	Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu]
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 3:16 AM
To:	blue_planet@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering

"Jason Hockley" wrote:
>         Benji mouse and Frankie mouse perhaps? <g>

I like.  But don't say that when they're around.  It pisses them off
when their cover's blown.

"Robert P. Stefko" wrote:
> 

ACCESS DENIED























> Neanderthal man had a slightly larger brain, but it was developed in
> different areas. While he had better short-term memory and recall (IIRC),
> Neanderthal lacked the capacity for long-term planning. Neanderthal tribes
[snip]
> extinction, the food supply became scarce. Neanderthal man continued to
> wander more or less aimlessly across the changing landscape, hunting
> whatever he could find, which wasn't always enough. His numbers declined
> even as Cro-Magnon man began tracking the remaining herds along the routes
> of their migrations, always remaining in a good supply of food. Cro-Magnon
> supplanted Neanderthal because he was able to make observations and
> extrapolate ahead to determine where a herd would be at any time of the
[snip]

Sure.  Unless their wanderings had a different purpose altogether.  For
a caretaker race, personal survival would take second fiddle to the
ecosystem.  Perhaps by the time they realized that their race was in
serious jeopardy, there was nothing to be done.  The ice age itself
wouldn't be inherently bad, ecologically speaking, and the Progenitors
aren't beyond mistakes.

Of course, that's just one option.

> Perhaps. Earth could be a control in some unimaginably huge and complex
> experiment in ecology. In that case, we'd be entirely on our own on this
> world, subject to the complete panoply of natural forces that shape an

The only flaw I see in this would be that natural selection on Poseidon
is that much more viscious.  Of course, there's also the argument that
it can be, since there's someone on site to make sure that evolution
doesn't destroy whole ecosystems.  In that view, Earth would have been
"pacified" a bit at the outset to make sure it lasted long enough to
produce viable results.

> ecology. Planets like Poseidon, on the other hand, would be at least
> partially sheltered from the more devastating natural processes, since
> they'd have a caretaker species to mitigate their effects. Investigation
> into the evolutionary history of life on Poseidon would likely reveal a
> marked absence (or near absence) of mass extinctions in the planet's fossil
> record.

Not necessarily true.  The planet would recover completely and quickly
from any such events, for sure.  But the abos couldn't do much about,
say, a serious meteor strike.  On Poseidon, that would pretty much
destroy the planet.  But then, we could get back into the possibility of
the Progenitors having place a planetary defence system, or cleared orbits.

Was it ever explained why Poseidon is too warm?  I forget.

--
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=

"I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble"
				- Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5)
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From:	c718678@showme.missouri.edu
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 1:06 AM
To:	blue_planet@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Christophe Stebe...

Seems to me its probably an automated response set to reply to any email
he recieves, and since he's on the blue planet list that includes Blue
Planet list mail.  Do I have a talent for restating the obvious or what?
I'll give it another go:  It won't annoy you past Feb. 1:)

Later,

Eva 
@@@(* > *)@@@



On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Adam Lewis wrote:

> 
> 
> Anyone recognize this name?  Or the following message?
> 
> Ugh...this list is small enough that it's not a big deal, but it can
> become annoying.
> 
> AdamL
> 
> 
> ---"Stebe, Christophe (Luxembourg)" <cstebe@husky.on.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I am not at the office till the 1st of february.
> > 
> > Please forward your CAD requests to Laurent Berna or the Helpdesk.
> > 
> > Christophe Stebe
> > 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> ***************************************************************************
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> 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.
> 


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From:	Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu]
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 12:04 PM
To:	blue_planet@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering

>Sure.  Unless their wanderings had a different purpose altogether.  For a
caretaker race, personal survival would take second fiddle to the
ecosystem.  Perhaps by the time they realized that their race was in
serious jeopardy, there was nothing to be done.  The ice age itself
wouldn't be inherently bad, ecologically speaking, and the Progenitors
aren't beyond mistakes.<

Um, the big point you seem to be missing is that caretaker species like the
abos exist from the *beginning* of life on a Creator planet. At least that's
what the published material suggests. For Neanderthal to fill such a
station, the species would have had to be around for about three billion
years. This is problematic for several reasons.

First, there was no oxygen or food supply to metabolize three billion years
ago, meaning no way for Neanderthal to generate energy to sustain life
functions. (The abos get around this with photosynthesis and osmosis, but
hominids have no such capabilities.) Second, there is no fossil record of
multicellular life before 680 million years ago, and the bones of a hominid
species dating from anywhere near this time would stand out like a neon
sign. Third, there *is* a fossil record of hominids from the past five
million years or so, of which Neanderthal is a branch that has since become
extinct. And the anatomical similarities with modern hominids (humans) are
too close to explain away as convergent evolution.

>Not necessarily true.  The planet would recover completely and quickly from
any such events, for sure.  But the abos couldn't do much about, say, a
serious meteor strike.  On Poseidon, that would pretty much destroy the
planet.  But then, we could get back into the possibility of the Progenitors
having place a planetary defence system, or cleared orbits.<

Build a biological bomb with the nanofactories, launch it into space in a
similarly engineered rocket construct, wait for the device to attach to the
asteroid and detonate it. Like Armageddon, but the shuttles are squishy and
alive. The abos have a powerful and adaptable tool in the xenosilicate. They
can build just about anything with it.

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From:	Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu]
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 6:57 PM
To:	blue_planet@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering

ACCESS DENIED


























"Robert P. Stefko" wrote:
> 
> Um, the big point you seem to be missing is that caretaker species like the
> abos exist from the *beginning* of life on a Creator planet. At least that's
> what the published material suggests. For Neanderthal to fill such a
> station, the species would have had to be around for about three billion
> years. This is problematic for several reasons.
[snip elaboration]

Sounds to me like that just sets a lower limit on how long ago the
visits might have been.  I don't remember whether or not there was a
time frame established for the Creators' visits to Serpentis II.

> Build a biological bomb with the nanofactories, launch it into space in a
> similarly engineered rocket construct, wait for the device to attach to the
> asteroid and detonate it. Like Armageddon, but the shuttles are squishy and
> alive. The abos have a powerful and adaptable tool in the xenosilicate. They
> can build just about anything with it.

But you still have the need of a space station to provide sufficient
notification of incoming objects.  Also, if such a system is in place,
how did the colony ships survive to make orbit?  No doubt they're huge,
and they should set off any meteor detection method.  The were headed
straight for Poseidon.  But they made it.  That in itself is an argument
for the lack of a meteor defense.

Which leads me back to the Sol system space travel conversation.  Would
Earth-based systems have some kind of IFF transmitters in really big
ships to prevent automated systems from knocking them down?  Or are all
the systems manned?  Either way, you've got some interesting
possibilities for attempted terrorist meteor strike.

--
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=

"I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble"
				- Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5)

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From:	Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu]
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 10:12 PM
To:	blue_planet@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering

>Sounds to me like that just sets a lower limit on how long ago the
visits might have been.  I don't remember whether or not there was a
time frame established for the Creators' visits to Serpentis II.<

BP says the Creators seeded planets with life, not tampered with already
present ecosystems. We know life on Earth began about three billion years
ago (from dating the rock in which the earliest fossils were found), and
Poseidon is just one wormhole away, so it probably was seeded within a short
time of Earth. If not, that would suggest that the Creators reached Earth
first, spent several hundred million years working here, and then moved on
to Poseidon. It would also suggest that Poseidon's ecosystem evolved in only
a small fraction of the time of Earth's. The abos may have been able to
accomplish this, but the rapid pace of evolution would show in the fossil
record, which would tip human investigators off that something is
accelerating the process on Poseidon.

A question for Biohazard: Is there much paeleontological work going on on
Poseidon? Investigations into the evolutionary history of life on the
planet? Any persons who've found evidence of unnatural forces at work in the
fossil record, but so far have been condemned to the ranks of crackpots by
the rest of the scientific community?

>But you still have the need of a space station to provide sufficient
notification of incoming objects.  Also, if such a system is in place,
how did the colony ships survive to make orbit?  No doubt they're huge, and
they should set off any meteor detection method.  The were headed straight
for Poseidon.  But they made it.  That in itself is an argument for the lack
of a meteor defense.<

Asteroids don't decelerate as they approach a planet. However the abos track
spaceborne debris, they probably recognized the oddity of an asteroid that
didn't move like an asteroid (and was partly hollow) coming at their planet.
By the time it parked in orbit, I'd think they were fairly certain it was
some kind of artificial structure.

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From:	BIOHZD@aol.com
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 10:33 PM
To:	blue_planet@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering

Hey All, 

Just my .02cs about some of the day's posts:

1. Auberon writes:
The only flaw I see in this would be that natural selection on Poseidon is
that much more viscious.  Of course, there's also the argument that it can be,
since there's someone on site to make sure that evolution doesn't destroy
whole ecosystems.

>>>>Evolution is what creates ecosystems. They are the interactions of all the
biotic and abiotic features of a specific environment, and form as a result of
adaption to that environement - organisms evolving to meet the competative
demands of the given habitat. As a consequence, organisms that evolve in a
"vicious" ecosystem are therefore adapted to the challenges of that ecosystem,
and must have, by definition, found a niche' in which they are able to
survive.

In other words, evolution does not destroy ecosystems. Instead it changes them
slowly over evolutionaly time scales. Only outside factors, such as introduced
species, asteroid collisions  and *humans* destroy ecosystems outright.



ACCESS DENIED



One of the tasks of the aborigines was to direct this gradual evolutionary
change in such ways as to support the Creators intent. Keep in mind however,
that the implication in BP is that the Creators terraforming efforts on the
planets they visited (visit?) did not neccessarily start with primodial ooze.
Remember too that artificially controlled natural selection can lead to
dramatic changes on an suprisingly short time scale. Consider the number of
different dog breeds humans have created (with out genetic engineering even)
in only the last 500 years. 

2. Kinaro writes:
I was wondering if anyone else had explored the possibilities of
genlifting/uplifting other animals aside from cetaceans? Such as monkeys or
other apes.

>>>>We have hinted at the fact that there have been other uplifiting attempts,
ie. sealions. We have also suggested, mostly on this list actually, that such
efforts have only been marginally successful. To be honest, Brin's work is so
rich in this respect that I think it would be in poor taste (and even illegal
; ) for us to mirror to musch of his universe in BP.

3. Robert writes:
the big point you seem to be missing is that caretaker species like the abos
exist from the *beginning* of life on a Creator planet. At least that's what
the published material suggests.

>>>>As per my suggestion above, the intent was to hint that not all the
Creator's terraforming efforts started with lava rocks and lipid molecules. In
that annoyingly vague way in which we refer to the Creators, such lines as
"...nurturing sparks of sentience" were supposed to imply that the Creators
tinkered with existing ecosystems as well. 


From the Depths,

Jeff Barber
Biohazard Games 

         
         
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From:	BIOHZD@aol.com
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 11:08 PM
To:	blue_planet@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering

Hey Robert, 

You write:

1. BP says the Creators seeded planets with life, not tampered with already
present ecosystems.

>>>>Yes this was typical, but we tried to impy that some tampering did occur.
I guess we should have implied harder ; ).

2. Is there much paeleontological work going on on Poseidon? Investigations
into the evolutionary history of life on the planet? Any persons who've found
evidence of unnatural forces at work in the fossil record, but so far have
been condemned to the ranks of crackpots by the rest of the scientific
community?

>>>>Sorry, but all I can say at this point is yes, yes and yes ; ). 

Later, 

Jeff Barber
Biohazard Games 

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