From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 2:05 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: More ACCESS DENIED > 1. BP says the Creators seeded planets with life, not tampered with already > present ecosystems. > > >>>>Yes this was typical, but we tried to impy that some tampering did occur. > I guess we should have implied harder ; ). One wonders whether they pop in to check up on their experiments, and nudge. > 2. Is there much paeleontological work going on on Poseidon? Investigations > into the evolutionary history of life on the planet? Any persons who've found > evidence of unnatural forces at work in the fossil record, but so far have > been condemned to the ranks of crackpots by the rest of the scientific > community? > > >>>>Sorry, but all I can say at this point is yes, yes and yes ; ). The two best character ideas I've heard so far were both crackpot scientists discredited by their rediculous (and correct, tho the players didn't even know it) ideas. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:08 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >>>>>As per my suggestion above, the intent was to hint that not all the Creator's terraforming efforts started with lava rocks and lipid molecules. In that annoyingly vague way in which we refer to the Creators, such lines as "...nurturing sparks of sentience" were supposed to imply that the Creators tinkered with existing ecosystems as well.< It would be ironic if, as one such "spark of sentience", *humans* were the caretaker species for Earth. We certainly affect great change on the environment wherever we go, and not always in a destructive way. (Our approach might simply be different from the abos. They ward, we domesticate.) But then I'm sure you guys at Biohazard "have no idea what I'm getting at," right. :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 2:09 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering "Robert P. Stefko" wrote: > > Asteroids don't decelerate as they approach a planet. However the abos track > spaceborne debris, they probably recognized the oddity of an asteroid that > didn't move like an asteroid (and was partly hollow) coming at their planet. > By the time it parked in orbit, I'd think they were fairly certain it was > some kind of artificial structure. If you're building a defense system, you're going to want to knock 'em down as soon as you're sure it's not a waste of effort. And ships coast most of the way insystem. By the time the fusion drive kicks into gear and starts decelerating relative to the planet, the birds might be in the air, and the abos' only response a resounding "oops" -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 2:31 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: > [ka-SNIP] > In other words, evolution does not destroy ecosystems. Instead it changes them > slowly over evolutionaly time scales. Only outside factors, such as introduced > species, asteroid collisions and *humans* destroy ecosystems outright. Maybe, due largely to my ignorance of biology, I'm thinking that life on Poseidon is much harder than it really is, but I can see one species, making a sleight adaptation, which allows them to eat something the couldn't have eaten before, and in a couple of generations, the new food is gone. Doesn't bother our hero; he just goes on eating whatever it was that he was eating before, after a population decline. But the extinct critter would leave a hole in things, jobs undone, ecologically speaking, no? > ACCESS DENIED > > One of the tasks of the aborigines was to direct this gradual evolutionary > change in such ways as to support the Creators intent. Keep in mind however, > that the implication in BP is that the Creators terraforming efforts on the > planets they visited (visit?) did not neccessarily start with primodial ooze. > Remember too that artificially controlled natural selection can lead to > dramatic changes on an suprisingly short time scale. Consider the number of > different dog breeds humans have created (with out genetic engineering even) > in only the last 500 years. ...The extiction of the dinosaurs, or the chaos caused by the ice ages. Or if we really want to get wierd, the splitting of the continents. What better way to contain an experiment? Of course, the paranoid step from there is, if the Creators decided that the dinosaurs were poor material, and got rid of them, are they gonna be happy with the way things turned out? What if they're not? It does sound like starting from primordial ooze would be the hard way, tho. > >>>>We have hinted at the fact that there have been other uplifiting attempts, > ie. sealions. We have also suggested, mostly on this list actually, that such > efforts have only been marginally successful. To be honest, Brin's work is so > rich in this respect that I think it would be in poor taste (and even illegal > ; ) for us to mirror to musch of his universe in BP. New researches are showing that parrots might be good candidates, actually. Most of their behaviour is learned, including their calls, and they can handle abstract concepts like bigger/smaller, and were working on closer/farther, etc. > >>>>As per my suggestion above, the intent was to hint that not all the > Creator's terraforming efforts started with lava rocks and lipid molecules. In > that annoyingly vague way in which we refer to the Creators, such lines as > "...nurturing sparks of sentience" were supposed to imply that the Creators > tinkered with existing ecosystems as well. But any caretakers are created at the same time as these sparks are nurtured, no? Of course, this just encourages my theory that we're the control, or part of the control group, and Poseidon is part of (one of) the experimental group(s). In which case, the experiment would seems to be asking, "Are caretakers generally necessary for sentient life to survive its own infancy?" Earth would be an ideal control, because of the large number of possibly sentient species (Humans, Dolphins, Orcas, and maybe the greater apes and some parrots). Or are the abos the sentient species of Poseidon? In which case, the question would be "Should species assisted to sapience know of the help they were given?" Well, it's getting cold here in left field. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 7:11 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >Maybe, due largely to my ignorance of biology, I'm thinking that life on >Poseidon is much harder than it really is, but I can see one species, >making a sleight adaptation, which allows them to eat something the >couldn't have eaten before, and in a couple of generations, the new food >is gone. Doesn't bother our hero; he just goes on eating whatever it >was that he was eating before, after a population decline. But the >extinct critter would leave a hole in things, jobs undone, ecologically >speaking, no? That's a bit oversimplified, but it does highlight an important fact. It is not the case that the ecosystem is completely self-regulating and non-destructive on it's own and we mean old humans just ruin everything we touch. There have been plenty of extinctions by "natural selection" and a lot of damage done to ecosystems by things that are not human and have had no help (such as relocation) from humans. Evolution can be as damaging to the ecosystem as anything humans can do, it's just that eventually, the system will balance out at some new level, which it also has done (in some cases) and will continue to do in reaction to human intervention. Remember, humans can't eliminate all life from earth, even if we actively try, the best we can do is to make it inhospitable for ourselves, other species will die off, change, and re-evolve (if given enough time) to live in any kind of enviornment. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:05 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Chris Sakal wrote: > That's a bit oversimplified, but it does highlight an > important fact. It is not the case that the ecosystem is completely > self-regulating and non-destructive on it's own and we mean old humans > just ruin everything we touch. There have been plenty of extinctions > by "natural selection" and a lot of damage done to ecosystems by > things that are not human and have had no help (such as relocation) > from humans. Evolution can be as damaging to the ecosystem as > anything humans can do, it's just that eventually, the system will > balance out at some new level, which it also has done (in some cases) > and will continue to do in reaction to human intervention. Indeed. Ecological stability is rarely a *static* one; cyclical (or near- cyclical) variation is observed in the population of many species, and trying to model and predict that kind of fluctuation has led to much work for biologists and mathematicians (I wrote my Master's thesis on certain mathematical aspects of a class of such models). A simple dynamical system of coupled equations (the most obvious and simple such system would be one with two equations, one representing the population of a predator species and the other representing the population of prey animals -- *extremely* simplified from the actual case, yet giving birth to enough math to keep lots of people in small dusty offices very busy) will, depending on just how the equations are coupled and what the initial conditions are, either tend to some stable equilibrium (one such, obviously, being total extinction of both species, another being the extinction of the predators and the subsequent growth-to-capacity of the prey species, but other ones are possible), or else it will tend to a dynamically stable limit cycle. Exactly what initial conditions will lead to which results in the long term is a *very* interesting subject (bifurcation analysis). Of course, ecology is the mother of all dynamical systems; there are not two or three interacting species, but millions. Not to mention the fact that the equations themselves change over time, as the environment changes due to both external and internal factors (you could incorporate at least some of *that* into the model as yet more equations, but at some point you'd have to draw the line) and the various species evolve new abilities in response to this (natural selection in a changing environment), as well as the fact that speciation events can lead to two or more competing species where there used to be only one -- in effect, new equations appearing into the mix. You really cannot model all of that in a meaningful sense; still, you can apply simplified models to help you make educated guesses, and that type of literature should occupy some amount of shelf space in any decent technical library (although I remember that some of it, in particular a much-talked-about-but-seldom-actually-read article published in Russian by Kolmogorov, Petrovsky and Piskounov in 1937 and only ever partially translated, was infuriatingly difficult to find), but I digress. (And if I do not stop now, I'm likely to digress into discussing my current job which involves programming database applications for research documentation -- hmm, research documentation, there's got to be an adventure seed or three in that, what with all those biology nerds flocking to Poseidon....) Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | Skyclad: "I am the king of all that I survey, www.pvv.org/~leifmk| beware my son, it could be yours one day. Math geek and gamer| Heir-transparent to a dynasty, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | dog-emperor of woe and misery." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:17 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >If you're building a defense system, you're going to want to knock 'em down as soon as you're sure it's not a waste of effort. And ships coast most of the way insystem. By the time the fusion drive kicks into gear and starts decelerating relative to the planet, the birds might be in the air, and the abos' only response a resounding "oops"< There's still the problem with the difference in structure between an asteroid and a spacecraft. A quick high-res radar scan would show the outer surface of the craft to be unnaturally smooth; IR and vislight would detect unusual emanations from the craft's machinery (and possibly even the writing on the hull — the abos would recognize letters as repeating, non-random symbols, even if they couldn't know their meaning); if they have gravimetric scanners of some kind, the abos would immediately notice the craft is not nearly dense enough to be an asteroid (from which they could infer that it's hollow). All these factors combined would give the system operators pause. It might even have touched off a period of awe and anticipation if the abos misinterpreted the arrival of humans as a visit by the Creators. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Sean Michael Whipkey [highway@cstone.net] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:39 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering At 11:32 PM 1/28/99 EST, BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: >>>>>We have hinted at the fact that there have been other uplifiting attempts, >ie. sealions. We have also suggested, mostly on this list actually, that such >efforts have only been marginally successful. To be honest, Brin's work is so >rich in this respect that I think it would be in poor taste (and even illegal >; ) for us to mirror to musch of his universe in BP. To be honest, the relation to Brin's uplift series is one of the big reasons that I bought the game. ;-) (I have GURPS Uplift also, but I can see Blue Planet almost flawlessly flowing into a near-canon Uplift game...) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - Cornerstone Networks Technical Support - highway@cstone.net Report received spam to: spam-report@cstone.net with the full headers Cornerstone Networks - 804.817.7000 or 800.325.9848 - support@cstone.net "Even we like sappy love stories...if they have zombies in them." - PEG, Inc. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:28 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >That's a bit oversimplified, but it does highlight an important fact. It is not the case that the ecosystem is completely self-regulating and non-destructive on it's own and we mean old humans just ruin everything we touch. There have been plenty of extinctions by "natural selection" and a lot of damage done to ecosystems by things that are not human and have had no help (such as relocation) from humans. Evolution can be as damaging to the ecosystem as anything humans can do, it's just that eventually, the system will balance out at some new level, which it also has done (in some cases) and will continue to do in reaction to human intervention. Remember, humans can't eliminate all life from earth, even if we actively try, the best we can do is to make it inhospitable for ourselves, other species will die off, change, and re-evolve (if given enough time) to live in any kind of enviornment.< The most massive extinction in the fossil record (Permian) occured because of a drop in sea level brought about by an ice age (caused, IIRC, by an increase in oxygen levels generated by the plant life of the time). Something like 90+% of all species then living became extinct. Mankind's impact on the planet pales in comparison to decimations like these. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 1:10 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Cc: ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu Subject: CTN update More news from Poseidon, as the Zion Music Festival continues... Kai Poh * * * Tragic Shooting Bloodies Festival KINGSTON: Barely a week into the Zion Music Festival, a tragic misunderstanding at the Hazards Casino in Kingston yesterday left three dead and 16 injured. According to eyewitnesses, Hanover Security Service officers mistook a prop gun for the real thing and opened fire on Ruth Noa, a tribal reggae musician performing on stage, killing her instantly. During the performance, Noa, percussionist for the band Kraken Girls, pointed and fired a realistic toy gun at the lead singer, as part of a mock argument meant to be a skit between songs. Apparently unaware of the skit, two HSS guards fired some twenty rounds into Noa, without warning, in front of a horrified audience of hundreds. Enraged fans fell upon the two guards, beating and stabbing them to death. Sixteen people were injured in the ensuing riot before authorities could bring the situation under control. Damages to the Hazards Casino are estimated to be around 500,000 cs. The surviving Kraken Girls have announced their intention to sue the HSS. Hanover Industries spokesperson Gertrude Baum announced that the HSS would contest the suit, and that all visitors would be issued full refunds. "We also vehemently deny allegations that the HSS officers were so-called 'trigger-happy veterans' freshly transferred from a hypothetical combat zone," she said. She went on to deny anonymous Commcore rumors stating that Hanover Industries has been concealing severe manpower losses brought on by dangerous operations in Westcape. - Gail Arthur, CTN/net ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 1:10 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Cc: ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - CTN update More news from Poseidon, as the Zion Music Festival continues... Kai Poh * * * Tragic Shooting Bloodies Festival KINGSTON: Barely a week into the Zion Music Festival, a tragic misunderstanding at the Hazards Casino in Kingston yesterday left three dead and 16 injured. According to eyewitnesses, Hanover Security Service officers mistook a prop gun for the real thing and opened fire on Ruth Noa, a tribal reggae musician performing on stage, killing her instantly. During the performance, Noa, percussionist for the band Kraken Girls, pointed and fired a realistic toy gun at the lead singer, as part of a mock argument meant to be a skit between songs. Apparently unaware of the skit, two HSS guards fired some twenty rounds into Noa, without warning, in front of a horrified audience of hundreds. Enraged fans fell upon the two guards, beating and stabbing them to death. Sixteen people were injured in the ensuing riot before authorities could bring the situation under control. Damages to the Hazards Casino are estimated to be around 500,000 cs. The surviving Kraken Girls have announced their intention to sue the HSS. Hanover Industries spokesperson Gertrude Baum announced that the HSS would contest the suit, and that all visitors would be issued full refunds. "We also vehemently deny allegations that the HSS officers were so-called 'trigger-happy veterans' freshly transferred from a hypothetical combat zone," she said. She went on to deny anonymous Commcore rumors stating that Hanover Industries has been concealing severe manpower losses brought on by dangerous operations in Westcape. - Gail Arthur, CTN/net ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kintaro Oe [kabael@bu.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 4:36 PM To: blue_planet@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - some suggestions I'm going to be running a game on IRC soon, and I was looking for ome suggestions if the list has any... I'm going to be using the system from Unknown Armies to keep the game simple, since it's over the net, but I was wondering if there were any problems anyone else had run into with Blue Planet. I'm jazzed : ) about this, because although I've had BP for a while, I haven't had the time or the players to actually do anything with it. kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping Sad notes- In this world we're all bamboo's children we walk on the roof of hell, in the end. gazing at flowers. -Basho -Issa Mcguffin Group - http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kabael@bu.edu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Adam Lewis [adamswork@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 4:56 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - some suggestions ---Kintaro Oe wrote: > > I'm going to be using the system from Unknown Armies to keep the game > simple, since it's over the net, but I was wondering if there were any > problems anyone else had run into with Blue Planet. Not really...The mechanics are so simple there aren't many rules to pick apart or complain about. If I absolutley had to choose a problem, I would say that the combat system can be tedious, BUT with the new GM screen that problem should go away. Speaking of the GM screen...I would love to have it before Winter Fantasy (Feb 25th) so I can show it off and maybe throw away all these damn index cards I use to keep tables on during the game. == AdamL ===== Water freezes at 32 degrees and boils at 212 degrees. There are 180 degrees between freezing and boiling because there are 180 degrees between north and south. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris L'Etoile [stormwaltz@ibm.net] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 5:56 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gene tampering Hey folks, Auberon wrote, regards human uplift projects: > New researches are showing that parrots might be good candidates, > actually. Most of their behaviour is learned, including their calls, > and they can handle abstract concepts like bigger/smaller, and were > working on closer/farther, etc. Has anyone else here read the article in the January National Geographic about ravens? They seem eerily bright - the writer mentions an experiment in which they show reasoning ability. Wads of meat are suspended from long strings. While a crow tries to lift the string with its foot, the strings are still too long for it reach the meat, and it is flummoxed. A raven, on the other hand, will look at the problem for a second, then pulls up the string, stands on it, pulls up more, and so on until it can reach the meat. On the first try. It may mean nothing, but it may mean that ravens are up there with fins and chimps. So far as I know, uplifted avians have never been done. Why not try one? (Caveat; not being very biological apt - no snickers, please - I wouldn't know if their brains are simply too small for the tasks ours perform.) - Chris -- /------------------------------------------------------\ | "You know, you're really beautiful when you're | | angry. Do you get beautiful very often?" | | - Terry Moore | |------------------------------------------------------| | stormwaltz@ibm.net | e2aow@geocities.com | |------------------------------------------------------| | -=The Empire II Archive=- | | http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/6085/ | | | | http://members.xoom.com/Stormwaltz | \------------------------------------------------------/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:00 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering Chris Sakal wrote: > [snip] > no help (such as relocation) from humans. Evolution can be as damaging to > the ecosystem as anything humans can do, it's just that eventually, the > system will balance out at some new level, which it also has done (in some Yes, but (again, as I understand it) the Sahara is the result of that kind of balancing. And it's still "balancing" big chunks of N Africa. Not exactly the kind of thing that promotes large amounts of biomass or biodiversity. That's what I was picturing -- not total demolition of life in a system, but one extinction snowballing until, for instance, half of the Archipelago is desert or festering swamp. Not devoid of life, per se, just not a happy place to be, even if you're native to it. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:07 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering ACCESS DENIED >Or maybe we were a different kind of experiment; left to fend for >ourselves, to see if we'd make it. This has always been my assumption. I haven't any theory on a checking mechanism, but it could be that the Progenitors created us to be an alternate type of caretaker, an experiment in sowing the seeds for a type of caretaker that built its own tools, and made its own mistakes and decisions about the welfare of the planet. Maybe the Abos are the norm, but then again, maybe we are. The latter is infinitely scarier, because it implies countless other races of f***ups like us, somewhere out there, with their fingers on the Button. I'd much rather think of the Abos as being the norm. Kai Poh, Malaysian Lagomorph in the Philippines. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:12 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering ACCESS DENIED "Robert P. Stefko" wrote: > > There's still the problem with the difference in structure between an > asteroid and a spacecraft. A quick high-res radar scan would show the outer > surface of the craft to be unnaturally smooth; IR and vislight would detect > unusual emanations from the craft's machinery (and possibly even the writing > on the hull — the abos would recognize letters as repeating, non-random > symbols, even if they couldn't know their meaning); if they have gravimetric > scanners of some kind, the abos would immediately notice the craft is not > nearly dense enough to be an asteroid (from which they could infer that it's > hollow). All these factors combined would give the system operators pause. > It might even have touched off a period of awe and anticipation if the abos > misinterpreted the arrival of humans as a visit by the Creators. But all of this presupposes the existance of a local scanning system. Moreover, if the system uses active sensors of any kind, excepting possibly gravity or forces involving the Strong or Weak Nuclear Forces, it's going to be detected. The fact that no such station has been found due to its emanations indicates that it does not exist. That leaves two options: either the Creators have technology so far beyond our ability to even detect that any discussion would be pointless, or they're only using passive sensors, in which case the information they could get would be much more limited. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:19 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gene tampering Chris L'Etoile wrote: > > Has anyone else here read the article in the January National > Geographic about ravens? They seem eerily bright - the writer > mentions an experiment in which they show reasoning ability. Wads > of meat are suspended from long strings. While a crow tries to > lift the string with its foot, the strings are still too long > for it reach the meat, and it is flummoxed. A raven, on the > other hand, will look at the problem for a second, then pulls > up the string, stands on it, pulls up more, and so on until it > can reach the meat. On the first try. Actually, in the study mentioned in the Scientific American special issue on intelligence, they tried standard tactics first, gave up for a bit, and then tried a successful tactic. And diffrent ravens tried different tactics. In the authors opinion, this indicated that they possess something similar to intuition -- they didn't get it by trial and error. Instead, they gave up, did other stuff for a bit, and then got it in one with a different tactic. Thanks for the reminder. I'd forgotten about them. One other thing about ravens (I live in Southeast Alaska, where there are a LOT of ravens) -- they play practical jokes. I've been a victem. They can also mimic human vocalizations, and those of other animals (they meow perfectly), and are sneaky devils. If anyone wants testaments to what clever beasties they are, write me and I'll give you a couple of examples. > It may mean nothing, but it may mean that ravens are up there > with fins and chimps. So far as I know, uplifted avians have never > been done. Why not try one? (Caveat; not being very biological > apt - no snickers, please - I wouldn't know if their brains are > simply too small for the tasks ours perform.) -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:40 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >The most massive extinction in the fossil record (Permian) occured because >of a drop in sea level brought about by an ice age (caused, IIRC, by an >increase in oxygen levels generated by the plant life of the time). >Something like 90+% of all species then living became extinct. Mankind's >impact on the planet pales in comparison to decimations like these. Well, for now anyway, don't sell us short ^_^. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:47 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >Yes, but (again, as I understand it) the Sahara is the result of that >kind of balancing. And it's still "balancing" big chunks of N Africa. >Not exactly the kind of thing that promotes large amounts of biomass or biodiversity. > >That's what I was picturing -- not total demolition of life in a system, >but one extinction snowballing until, for instance, half of the >Archipelago is desert or festering swamp. Not devoid of life, per se, >just not a happy place to be, even if you're native to it. Oh yeah, well I never said that whatever level it ends up at would be good for all of the living things in it, just that something will be able to survive there no matter how bad things seem and then things will start to change from that point. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:45 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gene tampering > Has anyone else here read the article in the January National >Geographic about ravens? They seem eerily bright - the writer >mentions an experiment in which they show reasoning ability. Wads >of meat are suspended from long strings. While a crow tries to >lift the string with its foot, the strings are still too long >for it reach the meat, and it is flummoxed. A raven, on the >other hand, will look at the problem for a second, then pulls >up the string, stands on it, pulls up more, and so on until it >can reach the meat. On the first try. > It may mean nothing, but it may mean that ravens are up there >with fins and chimps. So far as I know, uplifted avians have never >been done. Why not try one? (Caveat; not being very biological >apt - no snickers, please - I wouldn't know if their brains are >simply too small for the tasks ours perform.) Er, ravens may be really smart for birds, and there have been some experiments that suggest that even birds are a good deal smarter than we've thought them to be (in one a bird was taught to be able to tell a Monet painting apart from a Picasso (I think, I'm not sure of the second artist) and could distinguish with works it had never seen before after training), but remember, you're dealing with animals that have a brain the size of a walnut, they can only get so smart. They may be bloody clever, but they are not up there with dolphins and chimps, they just don't have the hardware for it. Remember, the brain does a lot, even though we tend to associate it only with higher cognitive function. You have to squeeze all processing of sensory data and output to effectors (be they glands or muscles) into whatever brain size you have, so although some birds can be smarter than we think, they are not sentient and cannot be, as you suspected, they just don't have the capacity. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Guilherme A Oliveira [gsi00074@gsaix2.cc.GaSou.EDU] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:46 PM To: blueplanet Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Lesear Effect Hey Kai, I was waiting to see if anyone else had interesting thoughts to your idea. Personally, I thought the mechanics you came up with were right on! It is a great idea (in my humble opinion) and I hope you don't mind if I try to implement them in my next campaign. I will try to let you know how it turned out if you wish. How do you come up with this stuff anyway???!!! JIM *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 10:23 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Lesear Effect I used the IHMS tables as a basis. Now the stats provided for IHMS would suggest that 10% of all travellers suffer some side effect, but I understand that Jeff intentionally made this a cinematic rather than realistic figure to inject some fun into interstellar travel. I took the opposite approach and made the rate of occurence for Lesear Effect side effects much lower. You should at least double the chances of a side effect for cinematic games. That way at least a few of your aquaform modi characters will end up like McDerrit and run off to a far island to start a cult. What would a campaign be without cults (well it wouldn't be Call of Cthulhu, anyway)? Thanks for the comments. Kai Poh >Hey Kai, > > I was waiting to see if anyone else had interesting thoughts to >your idea. Personally, I thought the mechanics you came up with were >right on! It is a great idea (in my humble opinion) and I hope you don't >mind if I try to implement them in my next campaign. I will try to let >you know how it turned out if you wish. How do you come up with this >stuff anyway???!!! > > > JIM > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.