From: Chris L'Etoile [stormwaltz@ibm.net] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 3:56 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gene tampering Hey folks, <> GEO ENCRYPT STANDARD BP-99-A30 Auberon wrote: > "Robert P. Stefko" wrote: > > > > The Aborigines are wonderfully eco-friendly in an ultra-PC, Gaia-cult kind > > of way, but all their work is for nought, simply because they have no desire > > to expand beyond their homeworld. When Serpentis finally dies, Poseidon and > > everything on it will be gone. Simple. > > I'd think their are two reasons for that. One is that they never > evolved, so they don't have the instinctive drives to become more, to > survive and breed. The second is that they're created with a purpose, > and were told their purpose. Knowing that you're a caretaker and > knowing that you were given that purpose, you'd be taken care of. Why > worry about a couple of billion years from now? Good points. If I may be forgiven for getting a little theological, it would not be beyond the realm of reason to analogize the Aborigines to angels, and humans to, well, humans. The Abos were directly charged by their creators with a specific task. They're are certain of what they should do, have all the power (nanotech) they need to fulfill their task, no desire to do anything outside of their mission, and, indeed, they have little capability to think about anything beyond its fulfillment. They are intelligent, yes, but they seem to have little in the way of what we would call "free will." Humans, on the other hand, have no memory of their creator, no powers except that which they themselves discover, and basically make up their own mission as they go along. We've never had, in our memory, any clear, unequivocal proof of the existence of a superior creator, and many of our religions tend to emphasize the inherent inscrutability of the "divine plan" - humans can never understand its full scope. This is a huge divide between us and the Abos. Frankly, I tend to think of the Aborginies as an advanced form of biological automaton, rather than a "true" species. That's why they give me the willies. But then, all forms of fundamentalism, even eco-fundamentalism, tend to give me bad vibes, no matter how benign the behavior of its adepts. People can excuse an awful lot of bad behavior if they're doing it in the ultimate service of a higher calling. Thus far, we've heard of Aborigines killing humans, effectively taking over their minds and rewriting their personalities, and creating their own little colony of genetic golems just to watch us. They dip into Lovecraft territory with alarming frequency. Just how long is it before they loose their nanobots to erase any trace of our existence from the face of their ward? Actually, that might make an interesting adventure - a "lost colony of Roanoake" sort of thing. After an extended period without contact, someone visits a remote colony, and finds no trace of it ever having been there. > But what if the abos are just proxies? What if all they do is help > other species to sentience, to become like us. Maybe they even > self-destruct after that, to keep their interference from being suspected? I like this idea a LOT. As for the species being nursed to sentience... Sunbursts, anyone? The eradication of this someday-sentient species would seem to be an eco-irony akin to the dolphin and orca near-extinctions. I can easily see those clever lads at Biohazard thinking along these lines. I suppose we'll find out someday (in Wormhole, perhaps?). - Chris -- /------------------------------------------------------\ | "You know, you're really beautiful when you're | | angry. Do you get beautiful very often?" | | - Terry Moore | |------------------------------------------------------| | stormwaltz@ibm.net | e2aow@geocities.com | |------------------------------------------------------| | -=The Empire II Archive=- | | http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/6085/ | | | | http://members.xoom.com/Stormwaltz | \------------------------------------------------------/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kintaro Oe [kabael@bu.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 5:08 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - some suggestions > Not really...The mechanics are so simple there aren't many rules to >pick apart or complain about. the chargen seemed a bit complicated to deal with over the net when I have the only copy of the game. and Unkown Armies is known (!) to more of my players than BP, actually. And it's a bit more freeform too, so it fits net gaming well, IMHO. if it was IRL, I would try the BP rules... > > If I absolutley had to choose a problem, I would say that the combat >system can be tedious, BUT with the new GM screen that problem should >go away. that's another thing, the UA system is a -snap- at combat. So it just seemed better overall for the environment. the only thing simpler would be Everway or Over the Edge (both written by the guy who did Unknown Armies, btw) > > Speaking of the GM screen...I would love to have it before Winter >Fantasy (Feb 25th) so I can show it off and maybe throw away all these >damn index cards I use to keep tables on during the game. I'd like -anything-, personally. and for charts, etc., I downloaded the pdfs from the website, although I've been having a bitch getting them to print. kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping Sad notes- In this world we're all bamboo's children we walk on the roof of hell, in the end. gazing at flowers. -Basho -Issa Mcguffin Group - http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kabael@bu.edu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 4:48 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering Human beings are not a bain upon the face of the Earth. We simply have a preference for certain ecologies (namely, domesticated ones), and we foster those ecologies wherever we go. We do this at the expense of local ecologies that impede our expansion, ecologies that are not adapted to servicing humanity. And this is basically what it boils down to: any ecology that does not serve humankind competes with it (and therefore faces a losing battle). It is no more "stupid" than the Aborigines attempting to foster *all* ecologies (and running the risk of botching them all). It's just a different way to promote life. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 3:08 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering "Robert P. Stefko" wrote: > > Like an artificial wormhole that remains hidden during six centuries of > continuous and systematic astronomical observations? But even Pluto was unknown until relatively recently. And the wormhole's way out there. And it could have an eccentric orbit. There's also the fact that we don't really know what a wormhole would look like, but most likely it just absorbs light. If we're really lucky, it'd lens it. More likely, we'd have to find one the way Masters and Vishenko did -- observations of minute changes in Pluto's orbit. Those same observations would have been impossible (according to my admittedly limited knowledge of astronomical equipment) even 10 years ago. Depending on the distance, the changes could be so small that you could even see them from inside the atmosphere for sure. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:59 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering "Robert P. Stefko" wrote: > > The Aborigines are wonderfully eco-friendly in an ultra-PC, Gaia-cult kind > of way, but all their work is for nought, simply because they have no desire > to expand beyond their homeworld. When Serpentis finally dies, Poseidon and > everything on it will be gone. Simple. I'd think their are two reasons for that. One is that they never evolved, so they don't have the instinctive drives to become more, to survive and breed. The second is that they're created with a purpose, and were told their purpose. Knowing that you're a caretaker and knowing that you were given that purpose, you'd be taken care of. Why worry about a couple of billion years from now? > Humans, as bad as we seem to be for Earth at the present, will be this > planet's eventual salvation. We have both the capability and the will to You're assuming that we're not wiped out by our own stupidity, along with most of what's we'd recognize as life on Earth. > expand beyond our single world, bringing Terran life to planets beyond the > reach of our sun, which must eventually die. I'd much rather have human-like > beings, dynamic and ever expanding, be the norm than the abos. The latter > are too much like automatons, locked by their biology into an ultimately > futile task. But what if the abos are just proxies? What if all they do is help other species to sentience, to become like us. Maybe they even self-destruct after that, to keep their interference from being suspected? There's another theory about what's up with Humanity! -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:39 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gene tampering Chris Sakal wrote: > > but remember, you're dealing with animals that have a brain the size of a > walnut, they can only get so smart. They may be bloody clever, but they > are not up there with dolphins and chimps, they just don't have the > hardware for it. Well, surface area counts for more than volume, as far as power goes. Also, parrots have been tested are as capable of language, and use it at the same level of proficiency as, a two year old child, a chimp, or a dolphin (the dolphins use symbols, but the concepts are similar to the use of language). > Remember, the brain does a lot, even though we tend to associate it only > with higher cognitive function. You have to squeeze all processing of > sensory data and output to effectors (be they glands or muscles) into > whatever brain size you have, so although some birds can be smarter than we > think, they are not sentient and cannot be, as you suspected, they just > don't have the capacity. Well, to get them above the level of a two year old, you'd probably have to breed them bigger, with either a larger or a secondary brain. It'd be difficult to do this and leave them with the ability to fly, though. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:29 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: > > The points made are relevant, but remember that the original statement dealt > with the destruction of ecosystems due to fierce interspecies competion. This > specifically does *not* lead to the destruction of entire ecosystems, though > it may lead to extinctions and eventual changes in the structure and > relationships within said ecosystem. On Earth. But if things are so much more extreme on Poseidon, Couldn't the results be more extreme as well, if only by virtue of the fact that a species could go extinct so much faster. > If indeed we are the "cartakers species" on Earth we *suck* at our job. Which is what lead to the speculation on what exactly happened. I believe, other than that one, the current postulations are: 1) Extinct caretaker species 2) Experiment in unmonitored evolution 3) We've been VERY naughty, and are going to have our collective noses rubbed in **** -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:23 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >That leaves two options: either the Creators have technology so far >beyond our ability to even detect that any discussion would be >pointless, or they're only using passive sensors, in which case the >information they could get would be much more limited. Like an artificial wormhole that remains hidden during six centuries of continuous and systematic astronomical observations? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:19 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >This has always been my assumption. I haven't any theory on a checking mechanism, but it could be that the Progenitors created us to be an alternate type of caretaker, an experiment in sowing the seeds for a type of caretaker that built its own tools, and made its own mistakes and decisions about the welfare of the planet. Maybe the Abos are the norm, but then again, maybe we are. The latter is infinitely scarier, because it implies countless other races of f***ups like us, somewhere out there, with their fingers on the Button.< I'd much rather think of the Abos as being the norm.< The Aborigines are wonderfully eco-friendly in an ultra-PC, Gaia-cult kind of way, but all their work is for nought, simply because they have no desire to expand beyond their homeworld. When Serpentis finally dies, Poseidon and everything on it will be gone. Simple. Humans, as bad as we seem to be for Earth at the present, will be this planet's eventual salvation. We have both the capability and the will to expand beyond our single world, bringing Terran life to planets beyond the reach of our sun, which must eventually die. I'd much rather have human-like beings, dynamic and ever expanding, be the norm than the abos. The latter are too much like automatons, locked by their biology into an ultimately futile task. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 11:51 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering Auberon, You write: One wonders whether they pop in to check up on their experiments, and nudge. >>>>I think we will have to install a better security system here at Biohazard HQ soon ; ). Jeff "No Comment" Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 11:51 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering Hey All, There have been several comments today addressing mass extinctions and ecosytem destruction due to natural causes. A couple comments: The points made are relevant, but remember that the original statement dealt with the destruction of ecosystems due to fierce interspecies competion. This specifically does *not* lead to the destruction of entire ecosystems, though it may lead to extinctions and eventual changes in the structure and relationships within said ecosystem. Only humanity and catastrophic events, such as planitesimal strikes or volcanic erruptions, can wipe out *entire* ecosystems on anything shorter than an evolutionary time scale. Additionally there have been some comments about the role of humans in species extinction. Massive asteroid stikes aside (which some recent estimates suggest may happen statistically as often as every 100,000 thousand years ; ) the rate of natural global extiction has never been as high as it is now. Though more species may have died out in various past extinction events, the rate at which they dissappeared was never as high as it is now. Moderate estimates I have seen suggest as many as 30 species are currently extirpated every day, due to harvest and habitat distruction - faster than any rate in the geologic record. If indeed we are the "cartakers species" on Earth we *suck* at our job. Jeff "Bleeding Heart Biologist" Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 11:51 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering Hey Robert, You write: But then I'm sure you guys at Biohazard "have no idea what I'm getting at," right. :) >>>>Ah...none whatsoever...(please remain in your home - a re-education squad will be there shortly. Remember - the Biohazard is your friend ; ). Jeff "The Calming Voice" Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.