From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:29 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering Well, the definition of a caretaker would probably lean more towards saving everything possible than it would to saving only what we want. It would be a poor museum curator that would only take care of the painting he liked and say, throw out all of the picassos because he hates cubism. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:27 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gene tampering >Well, surface area counts for more than volume, as far as power goes. Actually, that's not the case. It so happens that all of our cognitive functions are traceable to the neocortex, which is the outer layer, and the brain is highly textured to allow us to have more cortex, but that doesn't mean that everything inside is just junk. The deeper levels of the brain do other things, not less vital, but less related to what makes us able to think rationally. >Also, parrots have been tested are as capable of language, and use it at >the same level of proficiency as, a two year old child, a chimp, or a >dolphin (the dolphins use symbols, but the concepts are similar to the >use of language). OK, I'm really sceptic al of this one, can you cite a reference (not that I want to be litigious here, but I can't conceive of a parrot using language). Obviously they can produce many of the sounds involved in speech, and they can probably be trained to say a word or a phrase in reaction to an external stimulus or to express a need, but I really doubt that they can string words together to make a unique sentence (i.e. One they had not heard before). The ability for language requires quite a bit of specialized neural hardware, and I just don't think that parrots have the room (or the evolutionary complexity) to have it. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jason Hockley [jh596@soton.ac.uk] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 10:14 AM To: Blue_Planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - A Thought Hello again, I was reading a book a while ago and something occured to me. Has anyone tried basing a Blue Planet game on The Island of Dr Moreau by H.G. Wells? It has certain similarities with Natural Law. Anyone have any ideas? Jason ---------------------- Jason Hockley jh596@soton.ac.uk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 2:34 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - A Thought Hey Jason, You ask: I was reading a book a while ago and something occured to me. Has anyone tried basing a Blue Planet game on The Island of Dr Moreau by H.G. Wells? It has certain similarities with Natural Law. Anyone have any ideas? Good catch! In fact, Natural Law orginated as a sort of homage (sp?) to Well's book. In its original form (castaways only - no convicts) I called the scenario the Island of Dr. Morose. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 2:34 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Foreshadowing anyone? Robert, You write: When Serpentis finally dies, Poseidon and everything on it will be gone. Simple. [snip] The latter are too much like automatons, locked by their biology into an ultimately futile task. Access Denied (I guess) >>>>I offer an analogy ; ). If executives for powerful company build a factory, they typically hire a night shift and security, fully expecting the factory to be safe and functioning when they return to work in the morning. Jeff "Ain't I Subtle" Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 2:34 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction Hey All, Warning - I'm stepping up on my soapbox: 1. Humans activites are changing the Earth - this is a fact. 2. Yes, many of these activities are humanity's method of natural competition - simple, justified requirements for our survival as a species. Example - modification of land and deference to domesticated stocks for argicultural purposes. 3. Many other human activities are concious decisions or allowances on the part of society, driven by economic concerns instead of natural selection. Example - our failure to seriously develop renewable and/or cleaner alternatives to fossil fuels. 4. Most of these economically driven activites are irresposible in that they continue even though we now fully understand that the Earth is a closed system. There are only so many non-renewable resources to go around, and our renewable ones are poorly managed, if managed at all. 5. This is fact, not liberal PC retoric. The Earth's ecology, and its ability to sustain humanity, will not survive in the long term if we do not grow up and stop shitting in our own house. We should not be speculating about humans in a million years - we should be focused on the next five hundred! Forgive the simplistic indulgence, but I can offer an analogy that my students really seem to understand (I teach biology in my day job ; ). Imagine the family game Jenga (tm). The whole stack of blocks represents the Earth with a healty biosphere. The top layer of blocks represents humanity in that we depend on current ecological structure to support us. The blocks pulled out as the game progresses represent things like extictions, non-renewable resources, altered ecological cycles, etc. When enough blocks are removed the tower of bricks topples and the *game is over*. If humanity continues to carelessly remove blocks the Earth's ecology *will* crash. A new one will certainly take its place...eventually, but I guarrantee humanity will no longer be a part of it. On that happy note I'll step down now. Jeff "Save the Humans" Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 5:09 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gene tampering Chris Sakal wrote: > > >Well, surface area counts for more than volume, as far as power goes. > Actually, that's not the case. It so happens that all of our cognitive > functions are traceable to the neocortex, which is the outer layer, and the > brain is highly textured to allow us to have more cortex, but that doesn't > mean that everything inside is just junk. The deeper levels of the brain > do other things, not less vital, but less related to what makes us able to > think rationally. > >Also, parrots have been tested are as capable of language, and use it at > >the same level of proficiency as, a two year old child, a chimp, or a > >dolphin (the dolphins use symbols, but the concepts are similar to the > >use of language). > OK, I'm really sceptic al of this one, can you cite a reference (not that > I want to be litigious here, but I can't conceive of a parrot using > language). Obviously they can produce many of the sounds involved in > speech, and they can probably be trained to say a word or a phrase in > reaction to an external stimulus or to express a need, but I really doubt > that they can string words together to make a unique sentence (i.e. One > they had not heard before). The ability for language requires quite a bit > of specialized neural hardware, and I just don't think that parrots have > the room (or the evolutionary complexity) to have it. No, I understand, it's totally wierd, but it happens! Here's a couple: Communication with Parrots: The Pepperberg Homepage http://www.cages.org/research/pepperberg/index.html Links to lots of articles, containing information on studies. --- Alex the Talking Parrot http://www.discovery.com/DCO/doc/1012/world/nature/parrot/parrot1.html A cutesy overview, from Discover, but the link at the bottom goes to some useful stuff. --- That's all I could find in 5 minutes, but there should be enough there. I have to say, I'm totally with you on the skepticism, but the error rates are just too low for it to be a Clever Hans thing. It kinda makes sense, too; research indicates that most parrot behaviors are learned, not innate. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 5:18 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Foreshadowing anyone? BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: > > Access Denied (I guess) > > >>>>I offer an analogy ; ). If executives for powerful company build a > factory, they typically hire a night shift and security, fully expecting the > factory to be safe and functioning when they return to work in the morning. I don't suppose there's any way to maintain plausable deniability on this one? > Jeff "Ain't I Subtle" Barber Terribly. Now I really can't wait for Wormhole! Intersteller asswhupping! Even if it's our asses! -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 5:32 PM To: BP list Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Parrot Intelligence v2.0 Chris Sakal wrote: > > >Well, surface area counts for more than volume, as far as power goes. > Actually, that's not the case. It so happens that all of our cognitive > functions are traceable to the neocortex, which is the outer layer, and the > brain is highly textured to allow us to have more cortex, but that doesn't > mean that everything inside is just junk. The deeper levels of the brain > do other things, not less vital, but less related to what makes us able to > think rationally. In other words, as far as intelligence goes, meaning problem solving, planning, abstract associations, all the stuff we test for, surface area is what matters, not volume. > OK, I'm really sceptic al of this one, can you cite a reference (not that > I want to be litigious here, but I can't conceive of a parrot using > language). Obviously they can produce many of the sounds involved in > speech, and they can probably be trained to say a word or a phrase in > reaction to an external stimulus or to express a need, but I really doubt > that they can string words together to make a unique sentence (i.e. One > they had not heard before). The ability for language requires quite a bit > of specialized neural hardware, and I just don't think that parrots have > the room (or the evolutionary complexity) to have it. No, I understand, it's totally wierd, but it happens! Here's a couple: Communication with Parrots: The Pepperberg Homepage http://www.cages.org/research/pepperberg/index.html Links to lots of articles, containing information on studies. --- Alex the Talking Parrot http://www.discovery.com/DCO/doc/1012/world/nature/parrot/parrot1.html A cutesy overview, from Discover, but the link at the bottom goes to some useful stuff. --- Talking with Alex: suppliment to the article in the "Exploring Intelligence" special issue http://www.sciam.com/specialissues/1198intelligence/1198pepperberg.html This has some dialogs and a chart showing what kind of accuracy he has. It may not be perfect, but it's awfully good if he's just guessing or having mental burps. --- That's all I could find in 5 minutes, but there should be enough there. I have to say, I'm totally with you on the skepticism, but the error rates are just too low for it to be a Clever Hans thing. It kinda makes sense, too; research indicates that most parrot behaviors are learned, not innate. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 5:51 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >Well, the definition of a caretaker would probably lean more towards saving everything possible than it would to saving only what we want. It would be a poor museum curator that would only take care of the painting he liked and say, throw out all of the picassos because he hates cubism.< It would be the poor museum curator who tried desperately to save all the works of art from a fire, when time is short and the most valuable items are farthest from the flames. There are simply too many species in the world to waste time and effort trying to preserve them all. That's counterproductive. When you spread yourself that thin, you run the risk of losing _everything_. The abos' probably see us as a threat to their work on Poseidon simply because we _don't_ attempt to preserve life that competes with us for territory and resources without providing any tangible benefit in the form of exploitable wealth. I'm going to burn a lot of hides with this next statement, but if the GEO would just commercialize organisms like the sunbursts, allowing them to be farmed and harvested in an orderly fashion by licensed ranchers, you wouldn't see nearly the level of poaching that occurs in BP. It would be in the ranchers best interest to maintain the population at healthy (and profitable) levels, and to patrol their herds against human predators in a much more persistent manner than the GEO, with all its other concerns, can manage. Domestication and commercialization are perhaps the best forms of conservation, since they serve both the exploited species and their human wards. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kintaro Oe [kabael@bu.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 5:54 PM To: blue_planet@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - release schedule since I'm now actually able to plan and run my own Blue Planet game, I got thinking about supplements, and how there aren't very many. Although I have to say with the goddamn amount of work you put into something like Archipelago, I can see why. I can't say that I want quantity over that kind of quality... I was wondering if there is an updated release schedule? There is a list of planned supplements on the webpage, but I didn't notice many dates (though I didn't read that page deeply). When is Fluid Mechanics due out? Last time I heard of that was issue 2 or 3 of Undercurrents. Any plans for a game screen? I usually don't like them, but I've seen a few really good ones lately, and I think it would be useful for Blue Planet. kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping Sad notes- In this world we're all bamboo's children we walk on the roof of hell, in the end. gazing at flowers. -Basho -Issa Mcguffin Group - http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kabael@bu.edu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 6:40 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering >It would be the poor museum curator who tried desperately to save all the >works of art from a fire, when time is short and the most valuable items are >farthest from the flames. There are simply too many species in the world to >waste time and effort trying to preserve them all. That's counterproductive. >When you spread yourself that thin, you run the risk of losing _everything_. >The abos' probably see us as a threat to their work on Poseidon simply >because we _don't_ attempt to preserve life that competes with us for >territory and resources without providing any tangible benefit in the form >of exploitable wealth. Bad analogy. There's no fire, and you're assuming that a caretaker should put his own needs ahead of what he's taking care of. I agree with that statement as it applies to humans on Earth, but strongly disagree that you could call anyone that does that a caretaker. Humans try to shape the enviornment around them to their own benefit, there's nothing wrong with that, but it makes us very much NOT caretakers of our planet. Humans are also a threat to life on Poseidon. The abos want everything to be the same and only see natural processes at work in changing the population. Humans are doing there what we did on Earth, taking what we want and getting rid of what we don't like. While that, if done carefully (VERY carefully) can make a place very nice for people to live in, it's a bit like going to a neighbor's house, throwing out half of his furniture, buying some new stuff, moving everything around, and having the kitchen redone, then settling down in his bed. He'll probably be pretty upset about the whole thing, even if you end up with a house that's better for you to live in than it was when you moved there. >I'm going to burn a lot of hides with this next statement, but if the GEO >would just commercialize organisms like the sunbursts, allowing them to be >farmed and harvested in an orderly fashion by licensed ranchers, you >wouldn't see nearly the level of poaching that occurs in BP. It would be in >the ranchers best interest to maintain the population at healthy (and >profitable) levels, and to patrol their herds against human predators in a >much more persistent manner than the GEO, with all its other concerns, can >manage. Domestication and commercialization are perhaps the best forms of >conservation, since they serve both the exploited species and their human >wards. Now that's just not true. It is in the best interest of the industry as a whole for the population to be prudently managed and culled with minimal impact so as to allow for long-term harvesting, but it is in the interest of the individual to get everything he can as fast as he can and let other people worry about conservation. It's the prisoner's dilemma - if you try to pace yourself to not damage the ecosystem and your neighbor goes full guns, he gets rich, then the fish disappear, and you're screwed. If you both cooperate, everyone wins, and if you both go for the gusto, then you both loose, but not nearly as much as you would have if you had been prudent and he had taken everything he could. Thus it's the best strategy for a person to catch all he can and to hell with the ecosystem - and that's probably what would happen, it's a big planet, GEO can't be everywhere at once and if corps got into it, the whole planet could be depopulated of sunbursts in a few years. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Mercutio78@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:54 PM To: blue_planet@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - religion I was wondering what are the major religious movements active on the planet of Posiden? Does the Pope make any visits, are there any Bishops on Posiden? Is the Christian movement active? Are Jehovah's witnesses running around trying to teach their beliefs? Are there missionaries coming form earth trying to teach the poor forgotten children of Posiden to repent their sins and embrace God. What do the natives believe in? Has the native culture formed its own hybrid religion made up of their parent's beliefs and their experiences on the planet? This is only from a human stand point, cetacean religious movements are allready explained in the BP book. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Adam Lewis [adamswork@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 11:07 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction ---BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: > > Hey All, > > Warning - I'm stepping up on my soapbox: > > 1. Humans activites are changing the Earth - this is a fact. Well said, Jeff. My opinion...(um...after the Super Bowl which involved numerous beers) I tend to believe in humans. Sure we screw things up, but we have proven to adapt all through out (one word or two?) history. This is our strongest point. I read one persons philosophy that the only reason man survived was because he could run and look behing him at the same time. No other creatures could do that. Even with the AIDS virus, which seemed to be the plague of the 20th century, we have recently discovered the possibility of using a form of the virus as a way to infiltrate cells and deliver correcting DNA to cure cancer or whatever...The point is, we find ways to survive. I think (I hope) this will continue in our future. This is a terrible excuse for our actions of today, but I'm trying to be realistic. Our hope (actually our grandkids hopes) lie in the hands of the next generation. Of course some of you will say my attitude is the source of the problem, always putting the responsibility on the next generation. And you're right...but we all know a few dozen people right? And how many of those people, that each of us know, give a damn or even have a clue of the problem? Certainly none of my friends. So the people that are truly going to force us to pull our heads out, are the children that are in biology class right now. That is, if there are enough teachers like Jeff... Ok, on a sober note...I mean a side note.. I missed Ecplipse 99. Or should I say Eclispe 99... But I did show up sunday around noon and I heard from a couple people that the game Jeff ran was awsome and I missed it! Ugh!...Jeff let on that he would probably run Natural Law again, which I've already played so making it to the con had to take a back seat to helping my brother move. Oh well...I did find two people that want to start a campaign, so Jeff, you're trip to Ecplispe '99 was worth it... == AdamL ===== Water freezes at 32 degrees and boils at 212 degrees. There are 180 degrees between freezing and boiling because there are 180 degrees between north and south. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Adam Lewis [adamswork@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 11:23 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - release schedule Well, first let me say that Biohazard is usually good about responding to post such as yours and you'll probably get an "official" response soon enough. In the mean time, I'll tell you that the BP creators have fulltime jobs other than writing. The supplement list is as accurate as can be predicted, don't expect any dates. The game screen IS the next thing out, I believe. Followed by Fluid Mechanics, but I don't know when that will be. You certainly have the right attitude, "quality not quantity". I personally feel that Fluid Mechanics is needed and the game masters screen will be a big help, but after those are out...you could run adventures for years without another supplement. I think this is a strong point about the game. There are lots of games I would like to get involved with, but when I see there are 15+ supplements with new rules in each, it's discouraging and so I don't bother buying the basic books. AdamL ---Kintaro Oe wrote: > > since I'm now actually able to plan and run my own Blue Planet game, I got > thinking about supplements, and how there aren't very many. > > Although I have to say with the goddamn amount of work you put into > something like Archipelago, I can see why. I can't say that I want quantity > over that kind of quality... > > I was wondering if there is an updated release schedule? There is a list of > planned supplements on the webpage, but I didn't notice many dates (though I > didn't read that page deeply). When is Fluid Mechanics due out? Last time I > heard of that was issue 2 or 3 of Undercurrents. Any plans for a game > screen? I usually don't like them, but I've seen a few really good ones > lately, and I think it would be useful for Blue Planet. > > kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping > > Sad notes- In this world > we're all bamboo's children we walk on the roof of hell, > in the end. gazing at flowers. > -Basho -Issa > > Mcguffin Group - http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html > I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kabael@bu.edu > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.