From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:53 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > I don't even think that you're trying to understand. You have your opinion, > and you will stick to it, by guess or by God, for no reason other than it's > your opinion. So obviously, the rest of us are wasting our breath. Actually I was trying to explain why I find character classes flawed and having a discussion about it. I was pointing out what I saw as the flaws in other people's arguments about the benefits of classes. It didn't start out with the express purpose of convincing me that character classes are good, nor do I deny that convincing me that they are would be an easy task. What does that have to do with discussing the perceived merits and flaws of such a system? I had thought I had done a good job of having a reasonable discussion in a forum designed _for_ discussion. Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Wil [dreamweaver@keyway.net] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:35 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - premise > The problem isn't campaign ideas, it's PC group concepts. I can come up with > dozens of campaigns off the top of my head - the background material is that > rich. The problem is coming with a reason why 3-7 interesting, disparate > people would work together in that campaign.... That's not a really a new problem...people have had to wrestle with those kinds of concepts for years. Besides having them all employed by the same entity or forced together through common need, another way to do it is to have each player make up two PCs. If for some reason one PC has gone off to do something else, you can usually find a reason to script the second PC into the action that the majority of PCs are involved in. Allowing the PCs to act like people and wander off to do their own thing sans the group is usually a very time consuming process that involves lots of one-on-one sessions, blue booking, etc. It's certainly something I've had my share of problems with - the PCs as a group concept is really a holdover from adventuring parties and a way to save the GM headaches of tracking a half dozen people all doing their own thing. In my new Tribe 8 campaign, and likely Blue Planet if we decide to play that instead, I'm going to try to implement the two PC thing and see how it works. "Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?" Dreams of Flesh & Spirit: http://www.atomicrumpusroom.net/tribe8/ The Datacore: http://www.atomicrumpusroom.net/jovianchronicles/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: NRFB Bob [necrobob@compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:17 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - the A-Team At 05:10 AM 2/3/2001 -0000, you wrote: >> >Mr. T - Silva Shock Trooper. >> >> Ooo....careful there. That ain't quite politically erect- er, *correct* >to >> say that... }-> > >Meh. He's supposed to be a big strong guy. I'd have used a Silva even if >Arnie had played BA. Yep, and I do like the idea...funny thing is, if it was Arnold, nobody would raise a fuss about it. You never can tell in these lawsuit-happy days... ____________________ Necromancer Bob Visit The Gate: Necromancer Bob's Domain at: http://www.intws.com/necrobob AOL IM: NcroBob ICQ #78542780 "Do not mock the Panties of Potency." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:11 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - the A-Team > >Mr. T - Silva Shock Trooper. > > Ooo....careful there. That ain't quite politically erect- er, *correct* to > say that... }-> Meh. He's supposed to be a big strong guy. I'd have used a Silva even if Arnie had played BA. > Necromancer Bob Gar http://www.irishgaming.com/warpcon http://chrysanthemumRoad.tripod.com - L5R fansite http://www.commcore.f2s.com/oceanview - Blue Planet fansite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: NRFB Bob [necrobob@compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:08 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - the A-Team >Mr. T - Silva Shock Trooper. Ooo....careful there. That ain't quite politically erect- er, *correct* to say that... }-> ____________________ Necromancer Bob Visit The Gate: Necromancer Bob's Domain at: http://www.intws.com/necrobob AOL IM: NcroBob ICQ #78542780 "Do not mock the Panties of Potency." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: NRFB Bob [necrobob@compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:03 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general >I'm not entirely understanding what you mean by "protected" apparently. I don't even think that you're trying to understand. You have your opinion, and you will stick to it, by guess or by God, for no reason other than it's your opinion. So obviously, the rest of us are wasting our breath. ____________________ Necromancer Bob Visit The Gate: Necromancer Bob's Domain at: http://www.intws.com/necrobob AOL IM: NcroBob ICQ #78542780 "Do not mock the Panties of Potency." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:45 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - premise > Maybe a book along the lines of Cyberpunk's "Listen Up > you Primative Screwheads" could be packaged along with > a GM screen. That would be good, as would a full GM's book. Blue Planet is broad enough to support almost any genre aside from fantasy and some good solid advice on how to do that would be really nice. Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Napoleon48@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:49 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - premise I use a Narrative structure.(As seen in such a fine game as "Unknown Armies") A narrative structure is a coherant character unity thingy. All characters are members of X, or located in Y, or trying to complete Z...put the characters together from the beginning, and you have less of a problem. If the players make characters specifically to work with other characters-it tends to make getting everyone together much smoother. Of course, if you've already made characters, you may have a problem. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:46 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - premise > Though I _do_ like the idea of a 'seed ideas' supplement. Well I think it would be best to be _more_ than just adventure seeds, because BP has a fair number of those already. Access Denieds are scattered all over, and the old first edition GM screen had a book that was about half adventure ideas. Lots of good stuff in there, and a damned fine map screen as well. Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:39 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - premise > Getting back to the idea of campaign premise, I think that GMs these days > are extremely spoiled. I never had any problems starting games in > Traveller, D&D, Palladium, or any other game from the '80s that had a > background but no "metaplot". Granted, some of the backgrounds were not > nearly as complex but some of them (particularly Greyhawk and Traveller) > covered large areas. When you'r reading through the BP material, take notes > of interesting things as you go. Then, go back and look at those notes and > see how they tie together. Even from one read-through, I have half a dozen > ideas for campaigns and where to start them, of which only a couple even > involve being on Haven. The problem isn't campaign ideas, it's PC group concepts. I can come up with dozens of campaigns off the top of my head - the background material is that rich. The problem is coming with a reason why 3-7 interesting, disparate people would work together in that campaign.... Gar http://www.irishgaming.com/warpcon http://chrysanthemumRoad.tripod.com - L5R fansite http://www.commcore.f2s.com/oceanview - Blue Planet fansite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Napoleon48@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:39 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - premise I can agree with you- I'm starting a PBEM for people who don't know the game...and it's crazy how many options there are. They settled on Ecoterrorist cell, which is nice. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Wil [dreamweaver@keyway.net] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:34 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - premise Hopefully a lot more useful than LUYPSH! Most of the advice there was combat oriented, and when I looked through it last I found the book to be less stellar than I remembered. DP9 has packaged some very nice "assistant" books with their GM screens. The books have good useful advice (in fact, I'm working on a Tribe 8 article for beginning GMs right now and, reading through the material in the rulebook and the GM's screen booklet I'm finding myself wondering if my article is even necessary). Getting back to the idea of campaign premise, I think that GMs these days are extremely spoiled. I never had any problems starting games in Traveller, D&D, Palladium, or any other game from the '80s that had a background but no "metaplot". Granted, some of the backgrounds were not nearly as complex but some of them (particularly Greyhawk and Traveller) covered large areas. When you'r reading through the BP material, take notes of interesting things as you go. Then, go back and look at those notes and see how they tie together. Even from one read-through, I have half a dozen ideas for campaigns and where to start them, of which only a couple even involve being on Haven. FWIW, I do believe that my next favorite science fiction game, Jovian Chronicles, has suffered from a lack of direction. This is different than lacking presence - it just means that the supplements have been of varying quality and usefulness. BP doesn't suffer from that lack of direction. However, looking over the setting info provided in BP and JC I find both lacking in certain, but different areas,. My solution has been to merge the two ^_^ I should have the Frankenstein timeline done soon...from the work I did today while doing laundry everything seems to mesh pretty well. "Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?" Dreams of Flesh & Spirit: http://www.atomicrumpusroom.net/tribe8/ The Datacore: http://www.atomicrumpusroom.net/jovianchronicles/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:28 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - premise >From: Ml10@aol.com >Maybe a book along the lines of Cyberpunk's "Listen Up >you Primative Screwheads" could be packaged along with >a GM screen. > >Mike Z I wonder... maybe a thread about sample campaigns would be good? I'm new to the list, so I assume I've missed a bunch... Or, as another spin, maybe one of you folks with a BP website could gather up a list. Though I _do_ like the idea of a 'seed ideas' supplement. -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:17 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - premise Man, I go and run off to BP and some 20 messages appear on the list. Anyways..... One of the common complaints that I hear about BP is the lack of a default campaign setup aka premise. Given the huge amount of background material and a lack of premise, BP is a very intimidating game to setup and run. There are too many directions to go and too much to do. Not that it is a bad thing, just intimidating. Maybe a book along the lines of Cyberpunk's "Listen Up you Primative Screwheads" could be packaged along with a GM screen. Mike Z *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:41 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - not a diplomat but a... > That's just a bad GM, and a bad GM is going to mess up the game no matter > what game balancing rules you use. Indeed, but I was talking about balancing in broader terms than just the system. The original post was about balancing traits, but it's just as important to make sure everyone gets screentime and etc. > Yes, but BP doesn't even have those few ideas...(that I can recall, anyway. > Greg's probably going to pop up and hit me and point to some bit in the > Mod's guide that I've forgotten...) They're there, just not written :) I think that BP would benefit IMMENSELY from a Moderator's Guide. Sure we have one in _name_, but that's more a world book than "How to run BP." 'Course maybe I'm just weird because I think that BP could also do well with "Genre books," supplements on how to run "Action Planet!" and "Horror Planet" and et al. And here I was, going to keep that idea to myself... guess I spilled the beans :) Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:36 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - the A-Team > Give them a black jumpcraft with a red stripe, and they're ready to > go....although giving Mr. T a fear of water, not flying, and making Murdoch > a nutty dolphin would be far cooler.... I think I just figured out a way to actually sell my group on Blue Planet :) Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:35 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > I would also argue that classes fit the atmosphere of fantasy, in many ways. > Indeed, but as with the other good traits of classes, I think they work better as "archetypes" than classes. A foundation to build from rather than a role to fill, I suppose. > I mean, hell, characters in legend and in a lot of social roles _were_ > typecast into specific classes. These classes _did_ have a profound impact > on their education, skills, and equipment. Indeed, but in this case you start having a distiction between class in the setting (noble, peasant, soldier in Her Queen's army, priest) and class within the mechanics (thief, fighter, mage, etc). Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:14 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > You're missing the point. You can hammer with a wrench, too. Actually that's exactly what I'm trying to say, but I'd label character classes as the wrench. > Classes are a convenient way of communicating what is typical in the > setting/gameworld, shaping expectations, and giving ideas for further > interesting options. Sure they are, but in execution they are almost always tools of limitation as opposed to inspiration. Archetypes are a much better choice, I think. Take Kult for example. I'm reading the 2nd edition rules now, and in character creation you have 2 roads. One, take a boatload of points and go hog wild. Two, choose one of the archetypes they provide and make the choices they specify. You have the benefits of a character class system (easy, clear, fewer choices) with the flexibility of the general system, and the archetypes aren't wasted space for those like myself who don't like classes because they provide templates as well as ideas about what things are "average" for the setting. > Most class systems _I've_ seen allow a lot of flexibility, both to mix and > to specialize in all sorts of ways. I would dispute that with Rifts and AD&D. D&D3 allows for flexibility, but leaves you wondering why classes are there are all if it is so easy to change them. Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:21 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general >From: kabael@softhome.net > > You're missing the point. You can hammer with a wrench, too. > >Actually that's exactly what I'm trying to say, but I'd label character >classes as the wrench. (LAUGH) A veritable touch! AAARGH! -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:17 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > > > > And, BTW, if you come up with a good class name for "The > > Charismatic > > > > Person With Strong Social Skills Who Is Good With People" let me > > know. > > > > "Noble," as used in Star Wars d20, is just inaccurate for many > > > > characters. "Administrator" is just lame, and also inaccurate for > > many > > > > character types. Most of the other terms for this kind of person > > are > > > > somewhat negative: Hustler, Operator, Manipulator. Very annoying. > > > > > > Diplomat? > > > > No better than Noble, IMHO. Free Trader, Corporate Exec, Rock Star... > > all "Diplomats"? > >Talker? :-) Along that line, 'Communicator' seems to fit. It suggests a lot of the other skills that go in those various directions. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:59 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general >Can you think of anything that a character class actually brings to a game >that can't be accomplished in another manner? > >Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 You're missing the point. You can hammer with a wrench, too. This is very analogous to computer languages... languages are each good at handling certain types of problems. Yes, you can create an interactive web database in BASIC, but you probably won't want to. Perl is nice, easy, and can glom various other languages together, but it isn't optimized for a lot of things. It's not _whether_ you can do it another way, it's _how_ it does it. Classes are a convenient way of communicating what is typical in the setting/gameworld, shaping expectations, and giving ideas for further interesting options. Most class systems _I've_ seen allow a lot of flexibility, both to mix and to specialize in all sorts of ways. -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:13 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - not a diplomat but a... > > Yeah...but in a cinematic game, the other characters probably shouldn't be > > getting into fights in the first place. Buffy is broken - if she and Willow > > are up against a few Vampires, Buffy can waste them with ease, but Willow > > had better run or she'll get killed. > > Buffy's not necessarily broken, "balance" can mean "remember limitations" > as much as anything else. If the writers of Buffy constantly worked Willow > into combat-intensive situations that she survives, then I'd say that the > narrative was "broken" :) That's just a bad GM, and a bad GM is going to mess up the game no matter what game balancing rules you use. > > There are two ways to tackle this...you can give the GM more advice on > > developing his own premise, or you can supply some ready-made ones. Either > > works... > > (Premise here being defined as "this is what the game is about, what the > > characters are supposed be doing...") > > Personally I think that working the latter into the former is the best > option. "So you're wondering what kind of game to run now? Here are some > ideas..." Having the basic premise be limited in the concern of ease of > initial play when you don't have to is needlessly limiting to me. It's a > lot like character classes that way :) Yes, but BP doesn't even have those few ideas...(that I can recall, anyway. Greg's probably going to pop up and hit me and point to some bit in the Mod's guide that I've forgotten...) > Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Gar http://www.irishgaming.com/warpcon http://chrysanthemumRoad.tripod.com - L5R fansite http://www.commcore.f2s.com/oceanview - Blue Planet fansite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:05 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - not a diplomat but a... > Yeah...but in a cinematic game, the other characters probably shouldn't be > getting into fights in the first place. Buffy is broken - if she and Willow > are up against a few Vampires, Buffy can waste them with ease, but Willow > had better run or she'll get killed. Buffy's not necessarily broken, "balance" can mean "remember limitations" as much as anything else. If the writers of Buffy constantly worked Willow into combat-intensive situations that she survives, then I'd say that the narrative was "broken" :) > There are two ways to tackle this...you can give the GM more advice on > developing his own premise, or you can supply some ready-made ones. Either > works... > (Premise here being defined as "this is what the game is about, what the > characters are supposed be doing...") Personally I think that working the latter into the former is the best option. "So you're wondering what kind of game to run now? Here are some ideas..." Having the basic premise be limited in the concern of ease of initial play when you don't have to is needlessly limiting to me. It's a lot like character classes that way :) Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:05 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general I would also argue that classes fit the atmosphere of fantasy, in many ways. I mean, hell, characters in legend and in a lot of social roles _were_ typecast into specific classes. These classes _did_ have a profound impact on their education, skills, and equipment. I've always thought that, in the sense of 'suggestion of setting', class systems seemed appropriate for fantasy/historical, and skill systems for modern/SF. Basically, the revolution and power of the individual vs. class oriented society! Hmm. Game design as social commentary.... -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:02 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > It's great to be able to start with broad brush strokes, and then whittle a > concept down. True, but only if those broad strokes don't box you in and limit you. Don't forget that in painting you can easily escape the boundaries you've made by simply painting over them :) > For example, OtE has you pick 3 traits, one defined broadly. This is in many > ways class-like... except where the definition of a class is invented by the > group. Perhaps, depending on your definition of "class." I consider it to be a summary of a type of character dictating the type of traits you can choose and determining a variety of your capabilities. OtE doesn't really fill that definition, except by comparison and extension. > But that's a matter of detail vs. simplicity... a detailed game must define > things more precisely. So it's harder to use, and thus classes become > cumbersome. I completely agree. > It also sucks, though, to play a skill-based game. The laundry list of > skills to get through, point allocations, estimating what all the numbers > mean Not necessarily. Take Unknown Armies as an example. It does away with the laundary list by leaving skills to player definitions. And with the exception of the Obesssion skill, "what the number means" is fairly clear. > And a third way... 'make any character you want'. So I make Aquaboy, with a > variety of interesting connections in the ocean, and aquatic powers. Then I > show up for the game that turns out to be set on Dune. Well that's really besides the point. I could just as easily make a Ranger or druid in some d20 sci-fi megacity game. That's a lack of game concept communication more than system requirements. > Limitations provide foundations to generate ideas. It's nice to know 'I'm a > smart (stat) tough guy (warrior class) who can cook a mean omelet (skill) > and can program computers (skill)' That is nice to know, but I could replace "warrior class" with a number of traits or attributes and have the same definition. Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:01 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - the A-Team > > Yeah, I thought about that one, too, but it conjures up memories of the > > A-Team. Not something you want to do on purpose... > > Come come, now! The A-Team rocks. I love that show :) Anybody want to write up stats for an ex-GEO special ops team that went on the run for a crime they didn't commit? Hannibal - eh. Normal human with lots of tactical cybernetics. Face - transhuman with empathic enhancement and bodysculpting. Murdoch - acclerated neurons :-) Mr. T - Silva Shock Trooper. Give them a black jumpcraft with a red stripe, and they're ready to go....although giving Mr. T a fear of water, not flying, and making Murdoch a nutty dolphin would be far cooler.... > Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Gar http://www.irishgaming.com/warpcon http://chrysanthemumRoad.tripod.com - L5R fansite http://www.commcore.f2s.com/oceanview - Blue Planet fansite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:55 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - the A-Team > Yeah, I thought about that one, too, but it conjures up memories of the > A-Team. Not something you want to do on purpose... Come come, now! The A-Team rocks. I love that show :) >>Of course, it also >> increases the need for GM advice. *hint hint* > > "Bring lots of chips and soda." An lo! The fount of wisdom! It doth speak, and wise words of wisdom did come out! :) Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:52 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet >From: Kintaro Oe >Personally I think that the above genres can be just as easily simulated >without classes, which only serve to limit the people who _don't_ want to >tell an archetypal story with archetypal characters. And yes, I've heard so >much about how easy it is to multiclass in d20/D&D3 now, but if it's so >easy and classes don't really mean much anymore, why bother having them at >all? It's great to be able to start with broad brush strokes, and then whittle a concept down. Rambling characters can have more general classes... in D&D3, Rogue class can be used for a lot of things without making up new classes. Hell, the 'NPC classes' can be used, too... D&D3 considers them not as 'powerful' as the others and thus unfair, but that doesn't mean you can't do as you like. Yes, classes can suck when you have to play tango with the rules to get the concept you want. I would argue that's usually a matter of detailed systems vs. simple systems. For example, OtE has you pick 3 traits, one defined broadly. This is in many ways class-like... except where the definition of a class is invented by the group. But that's a matter of detail vs. simplicity... a detailed game must define things more precisely. So it's harder to use, and thus classes become cumbersome. It also sucks, though, to play a skill-based game. The laundry list of skills to get through, point allocations, estimating what all the numbers mean... and then realizing that you don't have enough points, or that you forgot a skill vital to your concept, or you misunderstood a rule and forgot to allocate a bunch of things... etc. CoC, which I adore and love, can be very slow and frustrating when generating characters. There are classes... occupations, which have an impact. It's a minor impact, to be sure... but it's there. It's a weird hybrid. But did you allocate the right skills? ARGH! My point is this... Different types of games exist because there are no hard answers to 'what's best'. Or to put it another way... Classes are limiting. So is a computer language that requires variables to be initialized at the beginning of a program... but such a language has features that another would not. And a third way... 'make any character you want'. So I make Aquaboy, with a variety of interesting connections in the ocean, and aquatic powers. Then I show up for the game that turns out to be set on Dune. Limitations provide foundations to generate ideas. It's nice to know 'I'm a smart (stat) tough guy (warrior class) who can cook a mean omelet (skill) and can program computers (skill)' Ok, a bit rambling, but 'I can't see why anyone would want to play with _rubber_ balls' sorts of arguments make my hindbrain twitch. -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:46 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - not a diplomat but a... > > In a cinematic game, though, each character should have their chance to > > shine - the protected niches you were discussing with Derek earlier. It's > > not hugely game-breaking if the combat specialist is a munchkined-out piece > > of twinkery - he's supposed to be uberly kick-ass. > > But that does have to be seriously balanced against the other player's > survivability chances in said combat, as well as their chance to shine > outside of it. > > It'll be a short game if the only way to challenge the brick is to get them > in a fight that has a 100% chance of pasting everyone else :) Yeah...but in a cinematic game, the other characters probably shouldn't be getting into fights in the first place. Buffy is broken - if she and Willow are up against a few Vampires, Buffy can waste them with ease, but Willow had better run or she'll get killed. > > Mm. One thing BP lacks is a strong group-level premise...the gm has to come > > up with the reason the PCs are together. > > I think that it lacks a "default" more than any sort of premise. I actually > like that, as it allows you to run a variety of games. Of course, it also > increases the need for GM advice. *hint hint* There are two ways to tackle this...you can give the GM more advice on developing his own premise, or you can supply some ready-made ones. Either works... (Premise here being defined as "this is what the game is about, what the characters are supposed be doing...") > > Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Gar http://www.irishgaming.com/warpcon http://chrysanthemumRoad.tripod.com - L5R fansite http://www.commcore.f2s.com/oceanview - Blue Planet fansite > Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:39 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - not a diplomat but a... > > I think that it lacks a "default" more than any sort of premise. I > actually > > like that, as it allows you to run a variety of games. Of course, it also > > increases the need for GM advice. *hint hint* > > "Bring lots of chips and soda." Seafood, surely...prawn crackers, anyone? > Greg Gar http://www.irishgaming.com/warpcon http://chrysanthemumRoad.tripod.com - L5R fansite http://www.commcore.f2s.com/oceanview - Blue Planet fansite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:37 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - not a diplomat but a... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:29 PM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - not a diplomat but a... > The term for the social junkie around here is often "Face". That could sum > it up reasonably well. Yeah, I thought about that one, too, but it conjures up memories of the A-Team. Not something you want to do on purpose... > I think that it lacks a "default" more than any sort of premise. I actually > like that, as it allows you to run a variety of games. Of course, it also > increases the need for GM advice. *hint hint* "Bring lots of chips and soda." Greg FFG *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:30 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - not a diplomat but a... > > No better than Noble, IMHO. Free Trader, Corporate Exec, Rock Star... > > all "Diplomats"? > > Talker? :-) The term for the social junkie around here is often "Face". That could sum it up reasonably well. > In a cinematic game, though, each character should have their chance to > shine - the protected niches you were discussing with Derek earlier. It's > not hugely game-breaking if the combat specialist is a munchkined-out piece > of twinkery - he's supposed to be uberly kick-ass. But that does have to be seriously balanced against the other player's survivability chances in said combat, as well as their chance to shine outside of it. It'll be a short game if the only way to challenge the brick is to get them in a fight that has a 100% chance of pasting everyone else :) > Mm. One thing BP lacks is a strong group-level premise...the gm has to come > up with the reason the PCs are together. I think that it lacks a "default" more than any sort of premise. I actually like that, as it allows you to run a variety of games. Of course, it also increases the need for GM advice. *hint hint* Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:18 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > > > And, BTW, if you come up with a good class name for "The > Charismatic > > > Person With Strong Social Skills Who Is Good With People" let me > know. > > > "Noble," as used in Star Wars d20, is just inaccurate for many > > > characters. "Administrator" is just lame, and also inaccurate for > many > > > character types. Most of the other terms for this kind of person > are > > > somewhat negative: Hustler, Operator, Manipulator. Very annoying. > > > > Diplomat? > > No better than Noble, IMHO. Free Trader, Corporate Exec, Rock Star... > all "Diplomats"? Talker? :-) > > Er....isn't there a points-based chargen system in the DMG? > > If there is, I didn't see it. I'm talking about a full-blown system, > here: one that allows me to trade ability points, for skills, or > feats, or additional spells, or any combination I can think of. I > haven't read it cover to cover, but I would be very surprised if such > a system exists in the DMG. Oh, right. Miscommunication. I'm fairly sure there's a point-based stat-generation system, but not a GURPS-esque "everything done through points" system. > > I'd also argue (albiet half-heartedly) that game balance is > > (a) something that points systems don't automatically help with, > > (b) an illusion in most cases anyway and > > (c) not relevant to Blue Planet anyway. > > Oh, I generally agree with (a) and (b). I share your opinion on (c), > too, but it is not true of the game Alan wants to run. As an aside, I > also think some attempt at balance becomes more important when you > change the focus and system for resolving combat. In BP, it's somewhat > okay if someone wants to create a munchkiny combat monster, because he > can still easily get whacked by a native urchin with a pistol. Tone > down the consequences of combat, and suddenly such characters are more > of a potential issue. In a cinematic game, though, each character should have their chance to shine - the protected niches you were discussing with Derek earlier. It's not hugely game-breaking if the combat specialist is a munchkined-out piece of twinkery - he's supposed to be uberly kick-ass. > > I've actually thought about using this approach for a "normal" BP > game. > > Right: you're all Incorporate agents, a rapid-response team. Here's > a > > million scrip. Go buy your team. > > I never read it thoroughly, but I liked what Conspiracy X did with > this. There was actually a point system for creating your spy cell or > whatever, which allowed you to buy resources from a base to contacts. > I have no idea how the execution worked, but it was a cool idea. Mm. One thing BP lacks is a strong group-level premise...the gm has to come up with the reason the PCs are together. All the "patron" organisations are obscenely huge, and don't help that much (saying "you all work for the GEO/an Incorp" is like saying "you're all french, therefore you work together"). Basically...there doesn't seem to be any obvious "PC group" in the published material. It's probably a result of having a coherent, realistic (simulationist) world.... > Greg Benage > FFG Gar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:10 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - talking past each other (was re: character classes in general) > First, I think we're totally talking past each other here, and I really > doubt we're going to come to any kind of agreement or mutual understanding. > That's okay -- it happens when people have very different experiences, I > think (even in gaming). So I'll try to clarify and leave it at that. [snip clarification] I think I understand what you're trying to say better now. I wasn't trying to talk past you, but I've found that it seems common in internet discussions. When you don't quite understand what someone is trying to say, it's a lot harder to re-explain everything and clear up the confusion than it is in real life :) Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 7:47 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > > > The other niches are no less protected: There simply isn't a character > > filling them at the moment. If a player is tired of being just another > > fighter (or mage, or rogue, or whatever), he can move into another, > > protected niche. > > I'm not entirely understanding what you mean by "protected" apparently. How > is it protected if anyone can make a character with that niche? First, I think we're totally talking past each other here, and I really doubt we're going to come to any kind of agreement or mutual understanding. That's okay -- it happens when people have very different experiences, I think (even in gaming). So I'll try to clarify and leave it at that. In every group I've ever been in, a new campaign has begun with a discussion of what kinds of characters the players wanted to play. That's true of both class- and skill-based systems. The difference, as I've tried to emphasize, comes over the course of a campaign: In a class system, if I play a Rogue, I'm always going to be better at stealth and intrusion than you are if you play a Fighter. In an open skill system, I may start out better in this "niche," but your Fighter may easily match my abilities over the course of the game as we develop our skills. Note that progressive skill costs, while certainly appropriate, contribute to this. So, in both cases, we can choose unique niches for our characters at the start of the campaign. In the class system, though, the borders between those niches are going to remain firmly in place, no matter how long we play. In the open skill system, there are no borders once we begin play. > How is it > protected if people can change character classes on a whim? If they can > change on a whime (D&D3), why have character classes at all? I suspect the 3E designers struggled with this mightily during the development of the game. Clearly, the class system in 3E is much less restrictive than in previous editions. This means there's also the possibility that they've lost the good with the bad. My *hunch* -- and I haven't played D&D enough to say with any certainty -- is that they've struck a pretty good balance. There are still lots of good incentives *not* to multiclass, and therefore the niches still have some in-game protection. But you're right, it's not as strong as it was. > If they can't > change, then how does that simulate the real world at all? D&D is in no way trying to simulate the real world. These are genre-based mechanics, through and through. > And if > simulation isn't your bag anyway, what does that "niche protection" of > rigid characters provide to counterbalance the unflinching limitation it > places upon characters? What does it provide? Um, greater long-term enjoyment for its target audience, I assume? I mean, I'm assuming (and I'm sure the 3E designers were too) that niche protection is a core value: it's something their audience wants, because they will enjoy playing their characters (and hence, the game) more if they have it. And I don't think this value needs to counterbalance anything: you assume that this "unflinching limitation" is a bad thing, but I'm not at all sure that the vast majority of D&D players share that opinion. > > Exactly. Pretty much every character, regardless of initial focus, > > ends up having similar levels in "core skills" like fighting, > > sneaking, etc., after an extended period of adventuring. The niches, > > at that point, are gone. > > Not necessarily, only if you decide that is the kind of character you want > to have Oh, sure. None of this is *necessary*. Any given gaming group can avoid any such problems simply enough by agreeing not to encroach on each other's niches. No classes necessary. However, while this can work just fine for an individual group, it's a terrible rule for a published game. > A system with character classes starts off with the class (lets call it > "niche" to be general) and then determines what skills said niche has. A > system without classes determines traits first and then "niche," in so much > as the word you would use to "sum up" the character. Again, you're focusing on initial character creation (it seems to me) and assuming that players will stick to their initial roles, niches, and skill sets -- and not encroach on those of other players -- as the campaign develops. > So instead of defining a role and determining skills from it, you determing > skills and define your role from them. I see that as a much more reasonable > and realistic (i.e. support suspension of disbelief) and versatile system > than the other way around. It's certainly more versatile -- that's the source of the problem, insofar as you may grant that there is one. As for suspension of disbelief, I think we can gather that: a) most D&D players don't find character classes to damage it, or b) it's not a core value for them. Personally, I have no problem with them in games for which they are genre-appropriate (like high fantasy, space opera, pulp, etc.). Anyway, that's my last word on the subject, and I apologize to the list in general for the lengthy off-topic digression. Greg Benage FFG *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:50 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > The other niches are no less protected: There simply isn't a character > filling them at the moment. If a player is tired of being just another > fighter (or mage, or rogue, or whatever), he can move into another, > protected niche. I'm not entirely understanding what you mean by "protected" apparently. How is it protected if anyone can make a character with that niche? How is it protected if people can change character classes on a whim? If they can change on a whime (D&D3), why have character classes at all? If they can't change, then how does that simulate the real world at all? And if simulation isn't your bag anyway, what does that "niche protection" of rigid characters provide to counterbalance the unflinching limitation it places upon characters? > Exactly. Pretty much every character, regardless of initial focus, > ends up having similar levels in "core skills" like fighting, > sneaking, etc., after an extended period of adventuring. The niches, > at that point, are gone. Not necessarily, only if you decide that is the kind of character you want to have. I played in a game based on the anime "Key the Metal Idol" using the Hero Wars rules set, which has no classes. One player was decidedly the "brick" while I was the "sensor platform" (to overly simplify things). People had their "niches." As another example, I've played in many a Vampire game, and niches seem well-defined there, at least within the group we had. People tend to fall into the physical, social or mental groups that the Attributes are divided into. I remember a very enjoyable game where I played a Lasombra combat monster, the only other player who came even close was the Brujah combat monster. And the Storyteller system is very much a skill-based system, yet we still have our "niches." That was because each player had an idea of what they wanted their character to be - and then they made it so. If there had been character concepts, my Lasombra above wouldn't have been possible because of the smattering he had in other areas. Instead of being a combat machine with a backstory and hopes beyond bloodshed, he would have been limited to being a combat machine. At least as far as the rules and traits themselves go. And this has nothing do to with the "Clans are classes!" argument, either. I don't buy it and I see little support for it beyond people who don't bother to move beyond the "average" of a clan demographic. If anyone wants to argue about that with me, I'm more than willing to do so, but that should probably be brought to private email, as it's even more OT than classes in general :) > > Instead of defining a role and then > > getting skills, it works the other way around. > > ? What I'm trying to say is that there is a different "starting point" for the two different systems. A system with character classes starts off with the class (lets call it "niche" to be general) and then determines what skills said niche has. A system without classes determines traits first and then "niche," in so much as the word you would use to "sum up" the character. So instead of defining a role and determining skills from it, you determing skills and define your role from them. I see that as a much more reasonable and realistic (i.e. support suspension of disbelief) and versatile system than the other way around. Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:23 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general In a message dated 2/2/01 4:24:57 PM Central Standard Time, necrobob@mail.compfxnet.com writes: << Not to mention, it's easier for first-time players to adjust to. You lay out the choices: pick a class, customize it a little, here you are. >> Let me tell you about one of my players named Robin. Robin created a character using only the skill package names as a guideline. During the process, he was able to create a little of his character's background based on those names. I didn't find out until half way through the adventure that it was the first time that Robin had ever played an RPG. So, based on my experience with Robin, I would have to disagree with the statement that Classes are better for first time players than other systems. Mike Z *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:21 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > How do they protect the niche, though? It's like the "uniqueness" Bob > mentioned. The niche is no longer protected or unique if you have a party > full of fighters, mages or rogues. The other niches are no less protected: There simply isn't a character filling them at the moment. If a player is tired of being just another fighter (or mage, or rogue, or whatever), he can move into another, protected niche. > The thing is, when you don't have character classes, you no longer have "a > rogue who kicks more butt than a fighter," you end up with "a guy who > fights a lot and can do some sneaking." Exactly. Pretty much every character, regardless of initial focus, ends up having similar levels in "core skills" like fighting, sneaking, etc., after an extended period of adventuring. The niches, at that point, are gone. > Instead of defining a role and then > getting skills, it works the other way around. ? Greg Benage FFG *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 5:37 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > Yeah, they protect character niches. When butt-kicking needs doing, > you send in the fighters. If you need to clear out a room full of > scrubs, you bring in the wizard and his fireball spell. If you need to > get rid of some undead or heal up after a battle, it's the cleric's > turn to shine. Covert and stealthy tasks call for rogues. And so on. How do they protect the niche, though? It's like the "uniqueness" Bob mentioned. The niche is no longer protected or unique if you have a party full of fighters, mages or rogues. > In an open skill system, the rogue may be a better butt-kicker than > the fighter, the fighter may be stealthier than the rogue, and the > cleric may be able to cast fireball. (Or the GEO Marshal may be a > better hacker than the hacker, and a better pilot than the pilot). The thing is, when you don't have character classes, you no longer have "a rogue who kicks more butt than a fighter," you end up with "a guy who fights a lot and can do some sneaking." Instead of defining a role and then getting skills, it works the other way around. > BTW, the aptitudes in BPv2 basically function as an open > "design-your-own-class" system, as was discussed during playtest. > That's why aptitudes are chosen during character creation and never > change. This system is pretty successful at protecting character > niches, I think, but it is *not* as effective as a true class system. I would have preferred the aptitudes to have some leniancy or development, personally, but I'm sure you heard that during playtest :) Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 5:32 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > For one thing, uniqueness. Theoretically, only characters of a certain type will have access to that class's unique abilities. How is that really unique though? It not longer becomes unique if everyone uses the same class, for example. And why is uniqueness limited to a particular character class only? To bring this to Blue Planet (pretending we can stay on-topic), you could say that "Only a fighter character class can get the Ultimate Warrior biomod" _or_ you could say "Only people who have worked for the GEO's shock troopers can have the Ultimate Warrior biomod." One is a rules restriction that limits character concepts and one is an enmeshing of the setting into character creation. >Not to mention, it's easier for first-time players to adjust to. You lay out the choices: pick a class, customize it a little, here you are. > That is something classes can do, but it is not something unique to classes. This could just as easily be accomplished by providing "templates" with "customizing points" in addition to the normal rules, something of a "quick start" option. Shadowrun did something similar to that, as did Feng Shui (although FS also didn't seem to provide any _other_ option, sadly). The have classes as the only option is only limiting. Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jeb Boyt [jeboyt@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 5:03 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Gareth Hanrahan" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:27:11 -0000 Er....isn't there a points-based chargen system in the DMG? I'd also argue (albiet half-heartedly) that game balance is (a) something that points systems don't automatically help with, (b) an illusion in most cases anyway and (c) not relevant to Blue Planet anyway. ================================== The points systems in the DMG and Star Wars apply only to attributes. I think what they have been talking about is a comprehensive points based system that would allow for the purchase of skills and feats. Jeb _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jeb Boyt [jeboyt@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 4:45 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet ----Original Message Follows---- From: Alan Broad Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:55:53 -0000 But you're right, it's a matter of style and that exactly why I fancied doing BP in d20 - 'cos for me, at this point in time, I like it's style. ================================= I'm just asking, but are you going to use the Blue Planet skills or a more abbreviated list akin to what was used in Star Wars? Jeb PS - Although it sounds like you are committed to d20, I have a character generation conversion from BP v.1 to Aftermath if anyone is interested. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:41 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:09 PM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > Can you think of anything that a character class actually brings to a game > that can't be accomplished in another manner? Yeah, they protect character niches. When butt-kicking needs doing, you send in the fighters. If you need to clear out a room full of scrubs, you bring in the wizard and his fireball spell. If you need to get rid of some undead or heal up after a battle, it's the cleric's turn to shine. Covert and stealthy tasks call for rogues. And so on. In an open skill system, the rogue may be a better butt-kicker than the fighter, the fighter may be stealthier than the rogue, and the cleric may be able to cast fireball. (Or the GEO Marshal may be a better hacker than the hacker, and a better pilot than the pilot). Now, these considerations clearly emphasize the "game" in "roleplaying game," as opposed to roleplaying, character development, plot, etc. But that aspect of RPGs is the most important thing to the majority of people who play RPGs. BTW, the aptitudes in BPv2 basically function as an open "design-your-own-class" system, as was discussed during playtest. That's why aptitudes are chosen during character creation and never change. This system is pretty successful at protecting character niches, I think, but it is *not* as effective as a true class system. Greg Benage FFG *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: necrobob [necrobob@mail.compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 4:10 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general >Can you think of anything that a character class actually brings to a >game >that can't be accomplished in another manner? For one thing, uniqueness. Theoretically, only characters of a certain type will have access to that class's unique abilities. Not to mention, it's easier for first-time players to adjust to. You lay out the choices: pick a class, customize it a little, here you are. -Necromancer Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 4:09 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - character classes in general > >Well while I don't think they work well at all, > > Typically negative of you...perhaps I shouldn't say that, but you definitely are overly militant on your attitude towards them. > Maybe, but I do honestly think that character classes are they appear in things like D&D are completely and totally devoid of any redeeming features, or at least features that couldn't be better accomplished in another manner. Can you think of anything that a character class actually brings to a game that can't be accomplished in another manner? Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 4:07 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - "Hollywood" games > It's a decent game with a good feel to it that fits its source material. Fortunately you aren't limited to playing actors in roles > (although the bidding is fun with the right group) and can play a "non-studio" campaign. I actually like it better than Feng Shui, > but that one is very good also. I'll have to make sure to try HKAT at some point. There are so many games that need trying, and so few players :) Derek Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 Opinionated reviewer extraordinaire *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: necrobob [necrobob@mail.compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:41 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet >Well while I don't think they work well at all, Typically negative of you...perhaps I shouldn't say that, but you definitely are overly militant on your attitude towards them. -Necromancer Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: wlfrun [wlfrun@yesconnect.net] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:41 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - "Hollywood" games > >Oddly enough, this reminds me of what I've heard about Hong Kong action >theater, which has the strange set-up of where the players play the actors >who play the characters in the movies. So you can have strange things like >different player maneuvering for the Star Role and no one wants to be >simply a "redshirt" :) Sounds interesting enough that I'd like to check it out. It's a decent game with a good feel to it that fits its source material. Fortunately you aren't limited to playing actors in roles (although the bidding is fun with the right group) and can play a "non-studio" campaign. I actually like it better than Feng Shui, but that one is very good also. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:22 PM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Benage [mailto:gbenage@ix.netcom.com] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gareth Hanrahan" > > > And, BTW, if you come up with a good class name for "The > > > Charismatic Person With Strong Social Skills Who Is Good > > > With People" let me know. > > > "Noble," as used in Star Wars d20, is just inaccurate for many > > > characters. "Administrator" is just lame, and also inaccurate for > > > many character types. Most of the other terms for this kind > > > of person are somewhat negative: Hustler, Operator, Manipulator. > > > Very annoying. > > > > Diplomat? > > No better than Noble, IMHO. Free Trader, Corporate Exec, Rock Star... > all "Diplomats"? > Although it's (in some respects) just as negative (in my mind at least) as hustler, et all, what about "Suit"? Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kintaro Oe [kabael@SoftHome.net] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:40 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - "Hollywood" games [snip BP kung-fu movies] Oddly enough, this reminds me of what I've heard about Hong Kong action theater, which has the strange set-up of where the players play the actors who play the characters in the movies. So you can have strange things like different player maneuvering for the Star Role and no one wants to be simply a "redshirt" :) Sounds interesting enough that I'd like to check it out. - kabael - Kintaro Oe - Derek the Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 the McGuffin Group - the End Times - RPG Action - the Thirteenth Legion Cabos; resonatos with thermos rather than pluto. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kintaro Oe [kabael@SoftHome.net] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:37 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet >Well... if you did that then you'd have to play BP as an action movie then. The original post was about running a cinematic BP game, no? >Attempts that I've seen to play Feng Shui games WITHOUT extremely large >numbers of pathetically hopeless mooks haven't turned out well, and the >problem with that for BP is that the mooks generally aren't supposed to be >pathetically hopeless. Well you can always solve that by simply not _having_ mooks. Give any NPC a name and bamf!, they're not a mook anymore :) And as for the high numbers, you can easily just reduce the skill points. Oddly enough, in the Feng Shui games I've been in, most people haven't been amazingly more skilled than in another game. The important thing about the FS system as it relates to actions movies and such is the schticks, I think. Those are really what would make those games for me. - kabael - Kintaro Oe - Derek the Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 the McGuffin Group - the End Times - RPG Action - the Thirteenth Legion Cabos; resonatos with thermos rather than pluto. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kintaro Oe [kabael@SoftHome.net] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:56 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet >I find it funny how people keep saying that. I keep wondering how *any* >setting is better suited (or not) to classes? Classes are such an >abstract simplification that if you can accept them at all then I don't >see how you can't accept their application to any setting. Well while I don't think they work well at all, I can see how they work better for archetypal (or even "stereotypical") settings. You know the kind, think of the fantasy setting. How often do we _really_ see the Warrior, the Female Warrior/Ranger, the Elven Mage, the halfling thief and on and on - not only in our RPGs but also in our novels, comic books and movies. Film noir would be another good example where you could argue for the existence of classes. Personally I think that the above genres can be just as easily simulated without classes, which only serve to limit the people who _don't_ want to tell an archetypal story with archetypal characters. And yes, I've heard so much about how easy it is to multiclass in d20/D&D3 now, but if it's so easy and classes don't really mean much anymore, why bother having them at all? - kabael - Kintaro Oe - Derek the Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 the McGuffin Group - the End Times - RPG Action - the Thirteenth Legion Cabos; resonatos with thermos rather than pluto. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:02 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gareth Hanrahan" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > > And, BTW, if you come up with a good class name for "The Charismatic > > Person With Strong Social Skills Who Is Good With People" let me know. > > "Noble," as used in Star Wars d20, is just inaccurate for many > > characters. "Administrator" is just lame, and also inaccurate for many > > character types. Most of the other terms for this kind of person are > > somewhat negative: Hustler, Operator, Manipulator. Very annoying. > > Diplomat? No better than Noble, IMHO. Free Trader, Corporate Exec, Rock Star... all "Diplomats"? > Er....isn't there a points-based chargen system in the DMG? If there is, I didn't see it. I'm talking about a full-blown system, here: one that allows me to trade ability points, for skills, or feats, or additional spells, or any combination I can think of. I haven't read it cover to cover, but I would be very surprised if such a system exists in the DMG. > I'd also argue (albiet half-heartedly) that game balance is > (a) something that points systems don't automatically help with, > (b) an illusion in most cases anyway and > (c) not relevant to Blue Planet anyway. Oh, I generally agree with (a) and (b). I share your opinion on (c), too, but it is not true of the game Alan wants to run. As an aside, I also think some attempt at balance becomes more important when you change the focus and system for resolving combat. In BP, it's somewhat okay if someone wants to create a munchkiny combat monster, because he can still easily get whacked by a native urchin with a pistol. Tone down the consequences of combat, and suddenly such characters are more of a potential issue. > I've actually thought about using this approach for a "normal" BP game. > Right: you're all Incorporate agents, a rapid-response team. Here's a > million scrip. Go buy your team. I never read it thoroughly, but I liked what Conspiracy X did with this. There was actually a point system for creating your spy cell or whatever, which allowed you to buy resources from a base to contacts. I have no idea how the execution worked, but it was a cool idea. Greg Benage FFG *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:27 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > Now, had I not read your posts, I would have suggested trimming the > d20 System down to a single class for BP ("Player Character," or > something :)). Then, have players choose groups of class skills for > their characters based on aptitude. If you want the additional > limitation/definition of true classes, though, that part of it should > be pretty straightforward. You might want to get an idea of the > characters your players want to play simply to focus your effort where > it will be most useful. > > And, BTW, if you come up with a good class name for "The Charismatic > Person With Strong Social Skills Who Is Good With People" let me know. > "Noble," as used in Star Wars d20, is just inaccurate for many > characters. "Administrator" is just lame, and also inaccurate for many > character types. Most of the other terms for this kind of person are > somewhat negative: Hustler, Operator, Manipulator. Very annoying. Diplomat? > By far, your biggest challenge is going to be handling modifications > and equipment. Basically, you're trying to fuse two diametrically > opposed systems: one built from the ground up around the idea of game > balance, one ignoring it (almost) completely. Worse, d20 takes the > inflexible approach to game balance (you can do this, this, and this, > you can do this twice, but you can't do that) as opposed to flexible > ones (points systems and such). Again, the Player's Handbook is built > from cover to cover on this principle (IMO, "converting" d20 to a > point system means you're not really using the d20 System anymore -- > it's a complete redesign of the underlying system). Er....isn't there a points-based chargen system in the DMG? I'd also argue (albiet half-heartedly) that game balance is (a) something that points systems don't automatically help with, (b) an illusion in most cases anyway and (c) not relevant to Blue Planet anyway. > In my opinion, your best option is to avoid trying to incorporate this > stuff into character creation at all. Just give the players a pool of > money to spend on whatever stuff they want, from genie packages to > jumpcrafts. You might want to re-price some stuff with eye towards > game balance, but that's all you'll have to do. I've actually thought about using this approach for a "normal" BP game. Right: you're all Incorporate agents, a rapid-response team. Here's a million scrip. Go buy your team. > Greg Benage > FFG Gar http://www.irishgaming.com/warpcon http://chrysanthemumRoad.tripod.com - L5R fansite http://www.commcore.f2s.com/oceanview - Blue Planet fansite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: necrobob [necrobob@mail.compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:21 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet >And, BTW, if you come up with a good class name for "The Charismatic >Person With Strong Social Skills Who Is Good With People" let me know. >"Noble," as used in Star Wars d20, is just inaccurate for many >characters. "Administrator" is just lame, Alternity uses the term "Diplomat", although this, too, is a bit inaccurate...seems to describe it the best. -Necromancer Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:18 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet Hey Alan, The biggest issue for you is clearly going to be character creation. The d20 task resolution and combat system should work just fine in Blue Planet, if that's the kind of game you're going for. Now, had I not read your posts, I would have suggested trimming the d20 System down to a single class for BP ("Player Character," or something :)). Then, have players choose groups of class skills for their characters based on aptitude. If you want the additional limitation/definition of true classes, though, that part of it should be pretty straightforward. You might want to get an idea of the characters your players want to play simply to focus your effort where it will be most useful. And, BTW, if you come up with a good class name for "The Charismatic Person With Strong Social Skills Who Is Good With People" let me know. "Noble," as used in Star Wars d20, is just inaccurate for many characters. "Administrator" is just lame, and also inaccurate for many character types. Most of the other terms for this kind of person are somewhat negative: Hustler, Operator, Manipulator. Very annoying. By far, your biggest challenge is going to be handling modifications and equipment. Basically, you're trying to fuse two diametrically opposed systems: one built from the ground up around the idea of game balance, one ignoring it (almost) completely. Worse, d20 takes the inflexible approach to game balance (you can do this, this, and this, you can do this twice, but you can't do that) as opposed to flexible ones (points systems and such). Again, the Player's Handbook is built from cover to cover on this principle (IMO, "converting" d20 to a point system means you're not really using the d20 System anymore -- it's a complete redesign of the underlying system). In my opinion, your best option is to avoid trying to incorporate this stuff into character creation at all. Just give the players a pool of money to spend on whatever stuff they want, from genie packages to jumpcrafts. You might want to re-price some stuff with eye towards game balance, but that's all you'll have to do. It might also fit with the kind of campaign you want to run to start them at higher than 1st level. BTW, here's my "cinematic combat system" for Synergy. It's three rules: 1. Mooks always have average aptitude. In everything. 2. When rolling damage, mooks drop their best (lowest) die result. Thus, they cannot do critical wounds, and their chances of doing minor and serious wounds are decreased. 3. Mooks are down on a serious wound, and out on a critical wound. Greg Benage FFG *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Alan Broad [abroad@appsmart.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:49 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > Personally, I don't like games with hundreds of tiny rules > and rule combinations (like d20*). I like systems, such as > Synergy, which are lightweight but flexable. I like those kind of games too - I just feel like using d20 this time :-) > I was also pointing out that if your only complaint about > Synergy was the damage system, then it would be far easier to > change the damage system than to come up with a d20 > conversion that captures the feel of BP. Unfortunately the damage system isn't the only problem I have with Synergy. Put another way - d20 has qualities that I want to make use of - classes give guidance during character creation without having to have read the background material, the system is already known by my group, it's open-ended, and it doesn't produce characters with 99.8% accuracy with firearms - all of which are things that in my experience Synergy doesn't handle very well. As for feats - I like them - for me they're no more complex than the individual rules for all the gadgets the players can have in BP. Don't get me wrong, I love the Synergy system - it's elegant, simple and bloody deadly :-D - it's just not what I want for the type of game I'm thinking of running. When all is said, the reason for my snippy reply is that I asked what I thought was a simple enough question, the kind of question to which one would expect replies like "try this url" or "nope, sorry mate", but instead got very little besides "You don't want to do that! Here's what you should do instead!". Oh well. Al From: necrobob [necrobob@mail.compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:10 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet >Sounds cool - but it's not what I'm after. I *want* the classes and the >restrictions they imply in character creation - I just need to come up with >enough so that you can multiclass into any BP character type you like. Or >at least almost any - lets face it, I'm not gonna be allowing any GEO >Marshals or Magistrates as PCs anyway :-) If yer gonna allow Marshalls in the d20 system, you might as well give them rune boom guns or something... -Necromancer Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:05 AM To: 'list, blue planet' Subject: [FWD] Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > -----Original Message----- > From: "Wil" > To: > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:00:13 -0800 > > RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue PlanetI find it funny how people keep = > saying that. I keep wondering how *any* setting is better > suited (or = > not) to classes? Classes are such an abstract simplification > that if = > you can accept them at all then I don't see how you can't > accept their = > application to any setting. > > Because class systems too rigidly define what a character can > do, which = > does not work in modern settings where individuals often have > a broad = > pallette of skills and experiences. Class systems IMHO work > well for = > fantasy games, where characters are more archetypal, but not > for modern = > games. I still think the best bet would be to tweak > Synergy's damage = > system to your liking...I have yet to play it, but it's > similar enough = > to other games I've played that I'm fairly positive it's a > smooth game. > > "Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?" > Dreams of Flesh & Spirit: http://www.atomicrumpusroom.net/tribe8/ > The Datacore: http://www.atomicrumpusroom.net/jovianchronicles/ > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:01 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet >> Well, I didn't actually ask the question as a way of inviting criticism of my taste in game systems :-) << Personally, I don't like games with hundreds of tiny rules and rule combinations (like d20*). I like systems, such as Synergy, which are lightweight but flexable. I was also pointing out that if your only complaint about Synergy was the damage system, then it would be far easier to change the damage system than to come up with a d20 conversion that captures the feel of BP. *Before everyone jumps up and down, claiming the d20 is a rules light system, I point to feats. Feats are tiny little rules that the GM has to learn. They are also integral to the game system. Like Talents in Earthdawn, Schitks (sp) in Feng Shei (sp), and most games that include magic, these little rules are a hassle for me to learn. Due to feats, d20 SW is far more complicated than WEG's SW. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:41 AM To: 'list, blue planet' Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 System While I don't necessarily see the need for the conversion of Blue Planet to the d20 System (and you think my position would be anything different? ), I do see the advantages of that system. For example, Jeff and I play in a great D&D3rded campaign. This GM (Jay Moore, some of you may have met him) is wonderful. We've thoroughly enjoyed a number of games with him including Cthulhu (Beyond the Mountains of Madness - http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai/cthulhu/), AD&D2nded, Fading Suns and now D&D3rded. However Jay doesn't like to play, he only wants to run the games for us. His schedule right now is very tight (he's in his residency, he was a classmate of Jason Werner's) so he doesn't have the time to learn new game systems. BUT, if we can bring him something in the d20 system, he won't have to learn new mechanics. So it's more likely when we want to take a break from our current campaign, that we could convince him to run something in that system than something *entirely* new (say Star Trek TNG by Last Unicorn). So I can readily see the advantage of the d20 System. Jim Jim Heivilin, System Administrator Open Systems, IAT Services University of Missouri at Columbia mailto:banzai@missouri.edu, 884-3898 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:35 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > -----Original Message----- > From: Gareth Hanrahan [mailto:hanrahag@iol.ie] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > *: Aside to Mr. Bacon: I want to see Fin Fu in the cetacean book. No > excuses. > Be prepared for the ultimate Fin Fu move ... "Tail Fluke Strikes The Monkey" Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:40 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet One thing you could do is tie some of the BP options directly to classes... Hmm. Maybe its a bit messy, but that would make most people multiclassed. Alternately, maybe have two kinds of class... origin class, and occupational class. So you get various skills, feats, and such from your origin class, and then have your normal class as usual. Probably treat origin class outside of the normal multiclass thing. Personally, I wouldn't use D20. Not because it's horrible, or classes are inherently bad... but simply because it takes work. I'm a lazy GM... that's why I buy games, so that a bunch of people with some skill at it can generate rules and pound them into something coherent. I can imagine using a bunch of different rulesystems, such as BESM2, Over the Edge, GURPS, Hero, or FUDGE. In each case, you'd only need to tweak a bit. OtE and FUDGE are rather simple, so you could brush over a lot of the detail. BESM2, GURPS, and Hero have more structure, and already have systems in place to handle a wide variety of abilities. The problem with D20 is that you have a detailed system, which requires defining the blocks of characters and rules. But the blocks and rules are all _new_. That's a _lot_ of work. If you enjoy that sort of thing, who am I to stand in the way... But my recommendation is to define what you want, why BP's rules don't work for what you want, and then look for best fit. GURPS and Hero seem unlikely choices. BP's rules are at roughly the same detail level, and is already designed for its own setting. You might want to consider isolating what you don't like about BP, and see if you can simply change them. Again, if what you really want is a completely different philosophy, fine... BP already has a degree of 'classes' built in, just with a bit more flexibility. People already walk around multi-classed. ;) If the combat is the stickler, it shouldn't be hard to moderate it. Make damage more 'knockout', maybe give people luck points to avoid severe damage, and decrease times needed to heal. The original person who posted might be devoted to doing this with D20... I'm not trying to argue him out of it, just exploring options. If he isn't interested in the options, then maybe this rambling missive will be useful to someone else. ;) -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Alan Broad [abroad@appsmart.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:29 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet My thoughts had been ... > RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue PlanetVague d20 ideas: > Races: Obviously, the various genies and cetaceans would be > separate races. I'd originally thought just plain humans, dolphins and killer whales. My reasoning was that in BP the genies mods can be either inherited or done later in life. So with genie mods as races how would you simulate a player wanting to get a diver mod *after* character creation? You wouldn't want to "change" their race. In the same way, how would you handle a character having multiple genie mods? So I reckoned it would have to be some kind of "extra" package of skills and feats that you could buy (maybe with XP) - but I've got no idea what, and I can see that totally throwing off any semblance of balance. I guess with simplicity in mind the "genie mods as races" idea might be the way to go and to hell with some of BPs flexibility :-D > Classes: Instead of having a "GEO Marshal Class" or a > "Native" class, how > about tying the classes to Aptitudes and skill groups.... As I said earler I was going for 6 or 7 quite vague classes like Soldier, Scoundrel, Administrator, Lawman, Native (can't remember them all) and each would obviously have appropriate class skills and feats. Alan From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:10 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue PlanetVague d20 ideas: Races: Obviously, the various genies and cetaceans would be separate races. Classes: Instead of having a "GEO Marshal Class" or a "Native" class, how about tying the classes to Aptitudes and skill groups.... Gar http://www.irishgaming.com/warpcon http://chrysanthemumRoad.tripod.com - L5R fansite http://www.commcore.f2s.com/oceanview - Blue Planet fansite *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Alan Broad [abroad@appsmart.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:56 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > > Classes are such an abstract > > simplification that if you can accept them at all then I > > don't see how you can't accept their application to any > > setting. > > It's more about style than anything else...for some settings, > classes work. For others, they don't. Just my game design > philosophy. I'm glad you added that last bit 'cos I was beginning to think I'd missed the chapter in my science text books where it lists the impirical evidence that shows which settings classes do and do not work for :-) But you're right, it's a matter of style and that exactly why I fancied doing BP in d20 - 'cos for me, at this point in time, I like it's style. > Anyway, I think somebody involved in the FSd20 idea > (which I keep mentioning because I think that they've been > addressing some of the same points/problems that come with > BPd20) mentioned some folks on the net coming up with a > point-based creation system for d20, and possibly using that. > Not sure where/who that was, my memory's a bit fuzzy. Sounds cool - but it's not what I'm after. I *want* the classes and the restrictions they imply in character creation - I just need to come up with enough so that you can multiclass into any BP character type you like. Or at least almost any - lets face it, I'm not gonna be allowing any GEO Marshals or Magistrates as PCs anyway :-) Alan From: necrobob [necrobob@mail.compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:33 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > Classes are such an abstract >simplification that if you can accept them at all then I don't see how >you >can't accept their application to any setting. It's more about style than anything else...for some settings, classes work. For others, they don't. Just my game design philosophy. >from the Jedi, they rest *are* very loose. Scoundrel, Noble, Soldier? >Sounds very loose to me, and exactly what I intended doing with BP - >Soldier, Scoundrel, Administrator, Lawman, Native etc. Ah. I think I said that I haven't read SWd20 (other than flipping through it in the store). If I didn't, consider it said. }-> But anyway, from what I've gleaned on the topic of the Fading Suns/d20 conversion, those that favor classes think the SW classes aren't loose enough for *that*, so that was what I was basing that on for Blue Planet. From what you're saying, the SW classes are closer to the ones from Alternity (probably not *quite* as open) in style. Anyway, as far as a Blue Planet/d20, it's not a bad idea, especially if you're familiar with the system already. BP2's system is realistic and deadly- good in some ways, bad in others. Anyway, I think somebody involved in the FSd20 idea (which I keep mentioning because I think that they've been addressing some of the same points/problems that come with BPd20) mentioned some folks on the net coming up with a point-based creation system for d20, and possibly using that. Not sure where/who that was, my memory's a bit fuzzy. -Necromancer Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Alan Broad [abroad@appsmart.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:05 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet > Okay, from what I've seen of Star Wars d20, it's a pretty > good start, but > these guys are right on one point- classes don't work well > for Blue Planet. I find it funny how people keep saying that. I keep wondering how *any* setting is better suited (or not) to classes? Classes are such an abstract simplification that if you can accept them at all then I don't see how you can't accept their application to any setting. > If anything, you could probably use very loose classes ala > Alternity. Funny you should say that 'cos if you look at the Star Wars classes, apart from the Jedi, they rest *are* very loose. Scoundrel, Noble, Soldier? Sounds very loose to me, and exactly what I intended doing with BP - Soldier, Scoundrel, Administrator, Lawman, Native etc. Pretty loose, but close enough to BP that you could figure out which class(es) to use to make your Native Patrolman or GEO Peacekeeper from. Alan From: NRFB Bob [necrobob@compfxnet.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 7:49 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet At 09:58 AM 2/2/2001 -0000, you wrote: >Well, I didn't actually ask the question as a way of inviting criticism of >my taste in game systems :-) There are...certain people around who have an extreme aversion to anything mentioning d20, and lose all reasoning power whenever it's mentioned. Ignore them. Fortunately, I'm not one of them, so you can not ignore me. }-> >But I guess no one else is doing it so I'll continue what I'm doing myself >then. Okay, from what I've seen of Star Wars d20, it's a pretty good start, but these guys are right on one point- classes don't work well for Blue Planet. If anything, you could probably use very loose classes ala Alternity. Heck, Alternity itself is a good place to crib stuff from- the mutations and cyberware are easy to port over to d20, since the systems are similar (someone on the Fading Suns list mentioned this when starting on a d20 version of FS). Of course, Alternity doesn't have any underwater-specific stuff in it, but that should be easy to come up with. Sorry I don't have a whole lot else to suggest...I've been reading 7th Sea books lately, so BP is in the back of my mind at the moment... ____________________ Necromancer Bob Visit The Gate: Necromancer Bob's Domain at: http://www.intws.com/necrobob AOL IM: NcroBob ICQ #78542780 "Do not mock the Panties of Potency." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Alan Broad [abroad@appsmart.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:59 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - d20 Blue Planet Well, I didn't actually ask the question as a way of inviting criticism of my taste in game systems :-) But I guess no one else is doing it so I'll continue what I'm doing myself then. Alan