From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 12:53 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Research Kintaro Oe wrote: > > At 07:37 PM 2/3/99 PST, you wrote: > >Yeah, I know, the inter-settlement distance chart will be in AD. But is > >there any chance someone at Biohazard can tell me the distance from > >Haven to Kingston? See, I'm writing a story right now where a character > >takes a red-eye flight to Kingston, and I need top know roughly how long > >it's going to take him. I'm assuming a private charter, maybe a VTOL or > >jet-powered seaplane. Would it have to make stops for fuel on the way? > > judging from the map in Archipelago, I'd say about 2750 kilometers. > > assault jupmcraft have a range of 1000 klicks, and the vtol fighter has 2000 > klicks, although the utility vtol can only go 1200 km. Which reminds me -- are the ranges given one-way numbers, or is that how far they can go and come back? I've been assuming the former, but the latter could be handy. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kintaro Oe [kabael@bu.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 12:29 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Research At 07:37 PM 2/3/99 PST, you wrote: >Yeah, I know, the inter-settlement distance chart will be in AD. But is >there any chance someone at Biohazard can tell me the distance from >Haven to Kingston? See, I'm writing a story right now where a character >takes a red-eye flight to Kingston, and I need top know roughly how long >it's going to take him. I'm assuming a private charter, maybe a VTOL or >jet-powered seaplane. Would it have to make stops for fuel on the way? judging from the map in Archipelago, I'd say about 2750 kilometers. assault jupmcraft have a range of 1000 klicks, and the vtol fighter has 2000 klicks, although the utility vtol can only go 1200 km. so I guess that it would require a stop along the way... although I kinda fudged that in my game. Kingston was the refueling stop. kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping Sad notes- In this world we're all bamboo's children we walk on the roof of hell, in the end. gazing at flowers. -Basho -Issa homepage (under construction!!) - http://members.xoom.com/kabael/ Mcguffin Group - http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kabael@bu.edu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 12:51 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Humans and Ecological Destruction BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: > > The point I was trying to make is that we have built a technological (usually > medical) and social (laws and ethics) buffer between ourselves and natural > selection as it happens in the wild. We have sort of stepped out of the > survival game as nature plays it, and now exercise a level of control over our > own selection that no species has ever had before. Which is what I was talking about. We have the ability to control out genome the same way nature usually does -- through sucessive generations. Soon we'll even be able to pick for traits. The problem with eugenics is that we'd not only breed to, for instance, eliminate cancer or alzimer's, but some nut jobs would probably start picking traits that were arguably deletorious, or eliminate traits too quickly. What if, for instance, high-risk candidates for some kinds of cancer corresponded with extraordinary runners, or really good pianists? -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kintaro Oe [kabael@bu.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 2:01 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Research >Which reminds me -- are the ranges given one-way numbers, or is that how >far they can go and come back? I've been assuming the former, but the >latter could be handy. I dunno. Either would make sense to list... kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping Sad notes- In this world we're all bamboo's children we walk on the roof of hell, in the end. gazing at flowers. -Basho -Issa homepage (under construction!!) - http://members.xoom.com/kabael/ Mcguffin Group - http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kabael@bu.edu *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 11:18 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Society and Ecology >No, no, but you were saying that in modern times, companies can't afford to screw their employees too badly because of the media. I'm contending that they can, and do. I just phrased it that way in an attempt to get you riled up.< It depends on the industry and the age group. Boomers with a decade or two of seniority are fairly safe; Xers with no experience outside of a Burger King are screwed. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 11:44 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction >> I'm sorry, but business is neither evil nor destructive. It can't afford to >> be. If you want to point fingers, point them at the career politicians and >> the legions of lobbyists who line their pockets. Business is an ecology (metaphorically speaking). It's much like Poseidon in that it is an "aggressive" ecology filled with predators, and with no prey species. We don't blame the lion for eating the gazelle, and what business does is no more evil than that. Business is business. Evil only comes into play when individuals make decisions and take actions that result in harm or disservice to other individuals. A man is evil. A corporation is efficient. This is precisely why most people don't trust corporations. You don't leave your child alone in a room with a hungry wolf, and if someone did you wouldn't blame the wolf. >But who pays the lobbyists? I think you've hit the nail on the head, >tho. They *can* afford to do it, as long as they do it right. When >that's no longer true, they wont. No corp is going to do something >ultimately unprofitable, or even unprofitable in the short term, >generally. Governments have to focus on making ecology more profitable >than anything else, and then get out of the way. I've noticed a tendency in this discussion to abstract the idea of "making ecological responsibility profitable." I'd like to see some of the proponents of this idea give specific suggestions. (I'm not being sarcastic, I'd really like to see a good suggestion.) The problem is that the only way anyone seems to have come up with is to put big fines in place for violations of ecological law. This is still government enforcement, not profitable ecological responsibility. Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 11:47 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Humans and Ecological Destruction Auberon (?) wrote: >Sadly, we don't use this ability, due to (IMHO) rediculous ideas >involving tinkering with humans being "wrong." On the other hand, it >might be ultimately good, when you consider who would be doing the deciding. By the way, on the End-Justifies-The-Means end of this discussion, the question of the ethics of human genetic tampering may be a moot point. It may be a basic requirement for our survival. With terrorists and maniacs getting their hands on all manner of biological and chemical nastiness, we may be forced to tinker with our genetics in an effort to improve our resistance to these threats. You can shoot down a plane or a missile, but when a wacko with a petri dish can kill 8 million people in 3 days, you have to look at methods other than interception. Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 11:55 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction >Corporations are operated by people. People who have these same desires to >live in a green (and blue :) ) and pleasant world. Given the chance to make >money _and_ help the environment, they'd take it. Despite decades of >sentiments to the contrary, businessmen are not heartless, profiteering >automatons. True, they are not. Most of them are even human beings. The problem is that they are responsible to stockholders for the profit margin of their companies. The stock holders are (usually) far removed from the day to day operations of the business, and are unfamiliar with the financial and ethical decisions the executives and employees make every day. Stockholders want profits. Don't get me wrong, I believe in enlightened self interest, and I believe that coporations can behave in accordance with it. I just don't think most corporate bodies are enlightened. >But the big difference between governments and >corporations is that corporations generally operate more efficiently and >proficiently at whatever they do because they can't increase taxes when they >run a deficit. Excellent point. However, the evils of government are a different issue ;). Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Andrew Pearce [ajp@dcs.qmw.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 12:10 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction It takes a lot to make me delurk. This is it. This thread has grown very boring, as well as off-topic. Can we *please* have a new thread? Andrew Archangel Gabriel wrote: > > > > >Corporations are operated by people. People who have these same desires to > >live in a green (and blue :) ) and pleasant world. Given the chance to > make > >money _and_ help the environment, they'd take it. Despite decades of > >sentiments to the contrary, businessmen are not heartless, profiteering > >automatons. > > True, they are not. Most of them are even human beings. The problem is > that they are responsible to stockholders for the profit margin of their > companies. The stock holders are (usually) far removed from the day to day > operations of the business, and are unfamiliar with the financial and > ethical decisions the executives and employees make every day. Stockholders > want profits. > Don't get me wrong, I believe in enlightened self interest, and I believe > that coporations can behave in accordance with it. I just don't think most > corporate bodies are enlightened. > > > >But the big difference between governments and > >corporations is that corporations generally operate more efficiently and > >proficiently at whatever they do because they can't increase taxes when > they > >run a deficit. > > Excellent point. However, the evils of government are a different issue ;). > > Archangel > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 12:28 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction I'm sorry if the discussion bores you. I happen to think that the moral and ethical questions presented by the background of Blue Planet are fascinating and worth discussing, but I respect that you disagree. In short: If you wan't a different thread, start one! I am happy to argue about almost anything :} *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 1:36 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction Archangel Gabriel wrote: > > I'm sorry if the discussion bores you. I happen to think that the moral and > ethical questions presented by the background of Blue Planet are fascinating > and worth discussing, but I respect that you disagree. This is also generally to point -- the pressures on corporations aren't changed significantly in BP. They're also not ravening monster bent on destroying Poseidon's ecosystems. I'm using this material! > In short: If you wan't a different thread, start one! I am happy to argue > about almost anything :} I am SO with you. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 1:42 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Society and Ecology "Robert P. Stefko" wrote: > > >No, no, but you were saying that in modern times, companies can't afford to > screw their employees too badly because of the media. I'm contending that > they can, and do. I just phrased it that way in an attempt to get you riled > up.< > > It depends on the industry and the age group. Boomers with a decade or two > of seniority are fairly safe; Xers with no experience outside of a Burger > King are screwed. Downsizing? Take-overs? Eliminating product divisions? All these dump well-trained, long-time employees. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 5:24 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Humans and Ecological Destruction >The point I was trying to make is that we have built a technological (usually >medical) and social (laws and ethics) buffer between ourselves and natural >selection as it happens in the wild. We have sort of stepped out of the >survival game as nature plays it, and now exercise a level of control over our >own selection that no species has ever had before. Well, that's just a part of evolution. We'll see if the trait of posessing enough intelligence to direct our own evolution pans out for us or not ^_^. Hit a man on the head with a fish, and he'll have a headache for a day Teach a man to hit himself on the head with a fish, and he'll have a headache for the rest of his life *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Planewalker [fleschneab13@uwwvax.uww.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 7:46 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Web site info needed I'm looking for the message board posted for Blue Planet. In addition to being a real cool site, I'd like some information on message boards in general. Thanks in advance! Planewalker *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 8:42 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - More BP inspiration... Here are a couple of books I highly recommend to all SF fans on this list: Holy Fire by Bruce Sterling No, I haven't gotten around to the cyberpunk master's latest novel, Distraction, but this one, which came out a couple years ago, is a real good, thoughtful piece of work about life extension. What happens when the world becomes a medical-industrial complex run by gerontocrats with kind intentions? You get a weirdly boring utopia where the young and disenfranchised never starve or suffer, but will have to wait for half a century before they can get any real money or power. It's a world where art and ambition have been quietly stifled by a sort of welfare state where nobody has to work or exert themselves. An interesting way of looking at the transhuman condition, although in this book Sterling calls it "the posthuman condition." He crafts an intriguing main character, 95-year-old Mia, a gerontocrat who undergoes a radical life-extension procedure and rediscovers youth and life. When Mia, giddy with her newfound youth, escapes her comfortable prison and enters the European underground, she discovers a movement of discontented intellectuals who hope to put creative energy, or "holy fire," as they call it, back into the human race, before it reaches immortallity and stagnates. Mia starts out polite and boring, but her transformation through life extension brings out a lot of interesting aspects to her character. The supporting cast is also very well-crafted, and you get intrigued even by some people who you only meet for a few pages. Definitely a great resource for anyone using transhumans and life extension therapy in a BP campaign, especially for role-playing tips. Forever Peace by Joe Haldeman This is a thematic sequel to his 1975 classic The Forever War. And a damn good one. For the first half of the book, Haldeman plays with ideas like a juggler, throwing nanotechnology, a little astrophysics, and lots of military tech at us, all wrapped up in a story about humans and our culture of war. The power of technology to distance us from the killing our soldiers do is taken to the extreme with the "soldierboys," remote-control killing machines that completely remove the need for Americans to risk their lives on the battlefield, although at a cost to their sanity. The soldiers of Haldeman's 21st-century world use something like the neural jack of BP to link mentally and to operate soldierboy technology. But in this world, the jack has the power to alter your perception of the world, and possibly in more ways than anyone can suspect. When a physics project in orbit around Jupiter is discovered to have massive military potential (to put it mildly), certain forces in the Army step in. But some things can't be covered up. And with this, Haldeman sends a disenchanted soldierboy operator, his scientist lover, and an odd mix of co-conspirators into a dizzyingly ambitious plan to stop the madness of war, even if it means changing human society forever. In fact, it's a little _too_ far-fetched at times, and the solution that our "heroes" propose seems too simple, too pat, on the surface. To Haldeman's credit, he acknowledges this, and his characters often question their own crusade. In the end, though, they can't stop what they've started, and must see it through, for better or worse. Towards the end, it turns into a black-and-white struggle between a conspiracy of peace and a bunch of Evil Religious Fanatics. But despite this rather conventional conflict at the end, it's still a powerful and emotional story, and well-deserving of the Hugo award it won last year. Kai Poh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.