From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 10:27 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction Tariffs are not an easy or painless economic measure to use. Sure, any government can tax any sort of import that it wants, but that will affect the economy of the country as well and the company producing the product, and the easiest thing for any corporation that finds itself locked out of a market due to high tariffs to do is to simply sell elsewhere. Not only that, but Tariffs are terrible for consumers, they encourage domestic businesses to simply raise their prices since they face reduced competition, which has a whole host of other effects. Finally, they're a governmental regulation of economy, which means that they can't move fast enough to keep up with a fast-paced world economy and they're sure to be in place when they're not needed and probably to call more regulatory legislation to support them that will cause problems elsewhere. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 9:31 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Language Another couple of questions, this time regarding language... 1) What languages are spoken in the BP world? What are the official languages of the GEO, and what about the major regions of the Archipelago? 2) How do we use the Language skill? There's a percentage score, but what does it indicate? Skill in _all_ languages? That would be like the misguided (and defunct) CoC Linguistics skill. Or just one language of choice? Kai Poh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 8:07 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction Tun Kai Poh wrote: > > Or look at the case of Incorporates which _have_ political borders of > their own, which means that sovereignty grants them immunity from > prosecution. But now they're subject to tarriffs, and to declarations of war. The U.S. isn't terribly likely to declare war internally, but bombing the hell out of what was a Columbian city? Why not? > And the screwing of less developed nations is quite often a concern of > mine, too. :) It's a concern to anyone with the brains to realize that the world doesn't stop at the lines drawn on a globe or map. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:47 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Incorporate Employees Actually, I've done a game like that in Shadowrun, and I submitted an Access Denied idea (Bye, Bye, Miss Bavarian Pie) similar to my Shadowrun concept, although I don't know yet whether it made the final cut to the adventure seed book. Kai Poh Auberon said: >What you could have, however, is employees disgruntled enough to resign, >losing all the benefits of Incorp citizenship to boot. Personality >conflicts, or finding out something that would cause moral dilemmas >would both work. In the latter, if the company finds out before the >person quits, you could have a VERY Shadowrun like adventure, where the >characters are hired to smuggle the person away from the company, >possibly to a rival or the GEO. If the company finds out after the >person quits, they're still gonna want a piece of him or her. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:25 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction Archangel said: >Once the company is >so big that it isn't bound by political borders then it's beyond the ability >of one government to influence. (Yes, I know that nations providing huge >marketplaces can influence corporate behavior simply because the company >wants to be able to sell there, but they can subsidize it by screwing up >Maylaysia or some other less developed nation.) Or look at the case of Incorporates which _have_ political borders of their own, which means that sovereignty grants them immunity from prosecution. And the screwing of less developed nations is quite often a concern of mine, too. :) Kai Poh, Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:43 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction Archangel Gabriel wrote: > > The only problem here is how do you keep corporations (with their > non-limitations) from simply skipping town to a location with a weaker > government (or one less interested in motivating eco-responsibility than in > economic growth)? The size of those giant companies makes the BP idea of That's the most difficult part. Fortunately, both the EU and the U.S. have some limited power to work on this. Institute tarriffs. Make sure that parts coming in from these countries are so heavily taxed that they're more expensive than those made in an eco-friendly manner. Either the companies move out, or the countries bring their environmental regs and enforcemtent up to the standard to avoid the tarriffs. If you're feeling generous, find some way to make it profitable to manufacture there, even after the environmental stuff is accounted for. Assistance programs in meeting the requirements, and investigators "on loan" would keep enough presence in those countries that they would have a really hard time putting up a front. > the GEO a practical necessity in terms of enforcement. Once the company is > so big that it isn't bound by political borders then it's beyond the ability > of one government to influence. (Yes, I know that nations providing huge > marketplaces can influence corporate behavior simply because the company > wants to be able to sell there, but they can subsidize it by screwing up > Maylaysia or some other less developed nation.) Good example; it's what they do nowadays. You just have to make it so painful (economicly speaking) for Malaysia and the companies that they're motivated to fix it up. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:44 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction "Robert P. Stefko" wrote: > > Some of these ideas do entail a level of government participation, but not > nearly as much as is currently the case; also, they should promote global > action, since corporations are not limited by cultural, social, and > political boundaries as are governments. But only with global participation, which is why I mentioned the EU. If you could bring the Pacific Rim countries in, and the Middle East, you'd have most of the money in the world. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:57 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction "Robert P. Stefko" wrote: > > One thing that should be noted: the Incorporates are not typical > corporations. They are at the same time corporations, governments, and > unique societies. This makes them a very different animal from the more > mundane multinationals of our world and most near-future settings. But not completely different. While they do have a government's motivations not to get involved in costly wars, and to protect their people (training more costs), but governments try to operate at a net balance of 0, whereas the corporations (even incorporates) are going to want a profit. As such, you can still wave a carrot pretty effectively. > It is my personal interpretation (make of it what you will) that the > Incorporates are very much like Japan during the period between the Meiji > Restoration and World War II. Not many local resources, but a constantly > growing industrial and technological base, with an educated populace > dedicated to commerce and industry and infused with a strong sense of > cultural pride and superiority. As we see from history, this combination of > economic and social factors often leads to expansionist political, military > and economic policies, which seems to be the case in BP. However, while > they're not out conquering large parts of Earth and establishing > co-prosperity spheres to feed their economies, the Incorporates are > establishing colonies on Poseidon for the purpose of eploiting its resources > for use by the terrestrial homelands. Well, we don't know if they're effectively taking over parts of Earth; we haven't heard much about it, yet. We do know that Luna doesn't seem to want them around, which would seem to indicate that they're doing some strong-arming style "economic assistance" or some such, since Loonies are so independant. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:11 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Society and Ecology Disturbance wrote: > > Indeed, but they improve the bottom line in the short term at the expense > of quality in the long run. I've been downsized out of three jobs, because > some upper-level manager wanted to improve the financial picture in a > hurry, and eliminating the more expensive staff is a sure-fire way to do > it. Months later, when their projects are crashing for lack of talent, they > start hiring back, but that's into the next fiscal year and doesn't affect > their bonus for the previous one. Then the cycle starts all over again. I will never understand why this doesn't get them sacked by someone important. > There's probably room for a storyline here about disgruntled former > employees using insider knowledge of corporate operations to assist some > ecoterrorist group or something similar. I've often wondered why Shadowrun > never made use of downsized employees. Well, in BP you probably wouldn't have downsizing; they'd probably be more like a Japanese company that way. If you screwed up, you'd probably just get a really disgraceful job, it'd be well known that you're a gimp, and you'd be a great example to others. What you could have, however, is employees disgruntled enough to resign, losing all the benefits of Incorp citizenship to boot. Personality conflicts, or finding out something that would cause moral dilemmas would both work. In the latter, if the company finds out before the person quits, you could have a VERY Shadowrun like adventure, where the characters are hired to smuggle the person away from the company, possibly to a rival or the GEO. If the company finds out after the person quits, they're still gonna want a piece of him or her. In the personal conflicts category, there's always sexual harrassment; particularly if you've got a male 'fin boss hitting on a human underling (Dolphins are not, as I remember, real picky about the gender of flings), and the process of sorting that out alienates the underling. Other possibilities abound, but I just thought I'd throw those in to see if they sparked any other ideas. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 3:22 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction >The only problem here is how do you keep corporations (with their non-limitations) from simply skipping town to a location with a weaker government (or one less interested in motivating eco-responsibility than in economic growth)? The size of those giant companies makes the BP idea of the GEO a practical necessity in terms of enforcement. Once the company is so big that it isn't bound by political borders then it's beyond the ability of one government to influence. (Yes, I know that nations providing huge marketplaces can influence corporate behavior simply because the company wants to be able to sell there, but they can subsidize it by screwing up Maylaysia or some other less developed nation.)< Multinationals tend to locate their headquarters in the First World, simply because the rest of the planet is politically unstable and most corporations do not want the hastle of relocating their administrative apparatus every time there's a revolution or coup. The "brain" of the corporation, then, can be influenced even though the rest of the body is off doing unhealthy things. And when the brain begins to operate differently, the body will follow. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 11:52 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Society and Ecology > >Because cyberpunk corporations are fundamentally different from ones we >currently have. They were designed around the concept of lifelong >employment, in which the corporate culture is literally that: a unique >culture in which members are as much citizens as employees. Remember that >cyberpunk emerged in a time when Japanese corps were on top, and before the >cutthroat downsizing of the eighties and nineties had fully gotten underway. Nevertheless, the story idea is very interesting. Cyberpunk was cool because it seemed plausible and deeply disturbing at the same time. BP's biopunk setting is at once more plausible *and* more disturbing. A disgruntled former employee would be a fascinating BP character. (Anybody wanna let me play him/her/it?) Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 11:50 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction >Actually, we have. On the issue of "training" corporations to think in an >eco-friendly fashion, Auberon and I discussed a system of punishment and >reward in the form of tax deductions for research into "clean tech" and >implementation of environmentally sound manufacturing methods; and stringent >fines (more than current regulations inflict) for infractions on existing >environmental laws. Also, development of alternative fuels such as methanol >(perhaps as a transition from gasoline to hydrogen), contracting of >environmental services to competing corporations (eco-capitalism). Sorry about that. I lost a large chunk of messages when my email client crashed, and was unable to read that portion of the discussion. >Some of these ideas do entail a level of government participation, but not >nearly as much as is currently the case; also, they should promote global >action, since corporations are not limited by cultural, social, and >political boundaries as are governments. The only problem here is how do you keep corporations (with their non-limitations) from simply skipping town to a location with a weaker government (or one less interested in motivating eco-responsibility than in economic growth)? The size of those giant companies makes the BP idea of the GEO a practical necessity in terms of enforcement. Once the company is so big that it isn't bound by political borders then it's beyond the ability of one government to influence. (Yes, I know that nations providing huge marketplaces can influence corporate behavior simply because the company wants to be able to sell there, but they can subsidize it by screwing up Maylaysia or some other less developed nation.) Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 10:41 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Society and Ecology >There's probably room for a storyline here about disgruntled former employees using insider knowledge of corporate operations to assist some ecoterrorist group or something similar. I've often wondered why Shadowrun never made use of downsized employees.< Because cyberpunk corporations are fundamentally different from ones we currently have. They were designed around the concept of lifelong employment, in which the corporate culture is literally that: a unique culture in which members are as much citizens as employees. Remember that cyberpunk emerged in a time when Japanese corps were on top, and before the cutthroat downsizing of the eighties and nineties had fully gotten underway. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 10:32 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Society and Ecology >Downsizing? Take-overs? Eliminating product divisions? All these dump well-trained, long-time employees.< Like I said, it also depends on the industry (or employment sector). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 10:30 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction >This is also generally to point -- the pressures on corporations aren't changed significantly in BP. They're also not ravening monster bent on destroying Poseidon's ecosystems. I'm using this material!< One thing that should be noted: the Incorporates are not typical corporations. They are at the same time corporations, governments, and unique societies. This makes them a very different animal from the more mundane multinationals of our world and most near-future settings. It is my personal interpretation (make of it what you will) that the Incorporates are very much like Japan during the period between the Meiji Restoration and World War II. Not many local resources, but a constantly growing industrial and technological base, with an educated populace dedicated to commerce and industry and infused with a strong sense of cultural pride and superiority. As we see from history, this combination of economic and social factors often leads to expansionist political, military and economic policies, which seems to be the case in BP. However, while they're not out conquering large parts of Earth and establishing co-prosperity spheres to feed their economies, the Incorporates are establishing colonies on Poseidon for the purpose of eploiting its resources for use by the terrestrial homelands. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 10:30 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction >I've noticed a tendency in this discussion to abstract the idea of "making ecological responsibility profitable." I'd like to see some of the proponents of this idea give specific suggestions. (I'm not being sarcastic, I'd really like to see a good suggestion.) The problem is that the only way anyone seems to have come up with is to put big fines in place for violations of ecological law. This is still government enforcement, not profitable ecological responsibility.< Actually, we have. On the issue of "training" corporations to think in an eco-friendly fashion, Auberon and I discussed a system of punishment and reward in the form of tax deductions for research into "clean tech" and implementation of environmentally sound manufacturing methods; and stringent fines (more than current regulations inflict) for infractions on existing environmental laws. Also, development of alternative fuels such as methanol (perhaps as a transition from gasoline to hydrogen), contracting of environmental services to competing corporations (eco-capitalism). Some of these ideas do entail a level of government participation, but not nearly as much as is currently the case; also, they should promote global action, since corporations are not limited by cultural, social, and political boundaries as are governments. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Disturbance [disturb@ibm.net] Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 8:32 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Society and Ecology At 10:41 AM 2/4/1999 -0900, you wrote: >Downsizing? Take-overs? Eliminating product divisions? All these dump >well-trained, long-time employees. Indeed, but they improve the bottom line in the short term at the expense of quality in the long run. I've been downsized out of three jobs, because some upper-level manager wanted to improve the financial picture in a hurry, and eliminating the more expensive staff is a sure-fire way to do it. Months later, when their projects are crashing for lack of talent, they start hiring back, but that's into the next fiscal year and doesn't affect their bonus for the previous one. Then the cycle starts all over again. And we wonder why so many crappy products come to market... There's probably room for a storyline here about disgruntled former employees using insider knowledge of corporate operations to assist some ecoterrorist group or something similar. I've often wondered why Shadowrun never made use of downsized employees. Disturbance The Ork In Black http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1440/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.