From: c718678@showme.missouri.edu Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 12:15 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gene tampering - Avians The idea of uplifting individuals in other species makes me wonder how those individuals would interact with non-uplifted individuals of their own species. Would they still socialize, even mate with them? ...gives a whole new dimension to the question of beauty vs. intelligence:) Also, would they be able to understand them better than humans do? Later, Eva @@@(* > *)@@@ On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, pete rogers wrote: > > Greetings one and all. > > I'm Pete Rogers - short time lurker, long time active poster on the > Deadlands : Weird West listserv. I work in Birmingham UK as a software > designer. > > Now that i'm done with the intro - i'll get to the point :) > > i'm not going to join the man: good or bad debate ? my opinion on that > one isn't based on fact, only gut feeling so i feel myself massively > underqualified to comment - much less rationally debate. > i'm more of a concept kind of guy - i can't neccesarily back up things > with science (which could be a problem in this forum :)) - i'm much > better with techno babble. However, i will attempt to throw in a few > concepts & enjoy kicking them around with you guys. > > i said i was going to get to the point didn't i ? sorry... > > the possibility of uplifting avians was raised - specifically Ravens and > Parrots. Know down to purely physical dimensions this has been met with > some understandable scepticism. However, using uplift techniques the > unique abilities of birds could be well utilised - namely flight. given > some degree of enhanced intellignence they would seem to make ideal > spies, or even assasination weapons. small, fast and hard to target due > to background clutter (ie other birds) a lone avian assassin trained to > attack a target on sight would make a pretty damned hard to stop > attacker. and providing this limited uplift technique was not overly > expensive, the option may be cheaper than a high tech robotic. There are > also countless other jobs a moderatley uplifted avian could perform - > from routine observation (against poachers ? - armed with a cam that > might slow down sunburst poaching) to litter collection. you're not > likely to see an Avian schoolteacher or professor of history - but they > wouldn't be beyond menial tasks. you could also expand this out beyond > avians to just about any species with a particular useful asset ie > strngth, co-ordination etc. and this in itself may lead to interesting > social debate/trauma. resentment is created in society today by > "immigrants coming over here and taking our jobs" (its in quotes so that > means i don't agree ! :)) - how would they feel if that was a bird !? > > i know this idea doesn't lend itself to the more interesting nature of > the whole uplift science and the concept of playing an uplifted cetacean > (i don't particularly want to play a Raven assassin bird - well not for > too long anyway :)) - but i thought i'd toss it in as an intro post. > > > cheers > > pete rogers > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 9:22 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction >Of course, I recognize that this is the idealistic view, but it's better >than watching the third world get turned into a toxic dump, while >shrugging and saying "What could we do?" It'd also be harnessing the >amazing economic power of corps for something positive, rather than just >lobbying and bribery. First off, in BP the corps are more powerful than most governments, so the balance of power really isn't that favorable, and tariffs would probably just turn around and strangle the country that tried to use them - the GEO is the only really effective governing body, and it's power is pretty tenuous, if it were to try to interfere with things that much it would probably loose a lot of influence. Secondly, you're not really harnessing the economic power of corporations for good, you're putting more rules into play that you hope will force the corps to do something good by accident, there's a big difference. The corps would do what they always do, work within the rules as much as they have to, around and over them as much as they can, and do whatever they can to make the most profit in a world where the rules are a little different. I'm not saying that tariffs won't work, I'm just saying that they're going to have side effects that may well be worse than the problem that they try to solve (which, incidentally, they may help alleviate, but won't solve completely). Hit a man on the head with a fish, and he'll have a headache for a day Teach a man to hit himself on the head with a fish, and he'll have a headache for the rest of his life *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 5:24 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction Chris Sakal wrote: > > I'd thought of that. It still would be a problem. Think about it, > companies will react to the tariff (which is an artificial trade > restriction) in such a way as to maximize their profits in a suddenly new > arena. These changes would most likely hurt the consumer, possibly a > significant amount, so congress regulates new controls on the industry to > reduce the new abuses, so businesses react to them, you get into a cycle, > and all of the legislation is not easy to just remove once the tariffs are > gone, and some of it will probably stay. Plus it just uses up a lot of > time and resources for both sides (government and businesses) The companies are going to do whatever's cheapest. Also don't forget competition. Example: Mitsubishi makes motors for VCRs in Indonesia. GE makes theirs in Taiwan. All of a sudden, Mitsubishi is paying $200 just to make a VCR for sale, while GE's price didn't change. Mitsu can hike their prices, but that'll just improve GE's sales. They can try to weasel out of the tarriffs, but then they have to wait for a government inspection, hope the can pass, or bribe/blackmail the inspector, and then their cost would go down, but still be higher than GE's, because Indonesia wouldn't meet the requirements. Now Mitsu's got to pressure Indonesia with the threat of moving the production facilities, until the costs are minimized. They will, of course, try to do illegal things to get around the tarriffs, but those things cost money, and they'd better work. By leaving it in the hands of an agency, which can approve regs much faster than congress can pass laws, you can also be sure that those illegal measures will only work once. Of course, I recognize that this is the idealistic view, but it's better than watching the third world get turned into a toxic dump, while shrugging and saying "What could we do?" It'd also be harnessing the amazing economic power of corps for something positive, rather than just lobbying and bribery. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 5:39 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Language -----Original Message----- From: Robert P. Stefko To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Language >>1) What languages are spoken in the BP world? What are the official >languages of the GEO, and what about the major regions of the >Archipelago?< > >The top 11 languages in the world (spoken by 100 million or more people) >are: Arabic (Modern Standard), Bengali, Chinese (Mandarin), English, French, >German, Hindi-Urdu, Japanese, Portuguese, Russian, and Spanish. > >These are spoken by half the population of Earth and understood by 3/4. I'd >think, even after the demographic fallout of the Blight, that these >languages are still the most common. I'd go along with that list. To answer Kai's other question, characters must take skill levels in each individual language they wish to speak and/or read and write. "Language" is a catch-all skill in this respect. Hope this helps, Greg Benage Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ndege Diamond [nezach@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 1:06 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Bruce Sterlings Manafesto Greets, A few days ago someone mentioned they wanted to take a look at Mr. Sterlings ideas on the ecological problems we face and I never saw anyone give the address. It's at http://www.well.com/conf/mirrorshades/viridian.html Ndege Diamond *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 7:08 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction >Which is why you build deactivating measures into the bill. The statute >would create an agency, or empower an existing agency, to inspect >countries and companies and exempt them from the tarriffs. The list of >nations and companies wouldn't be set in the bill, like they usually >are. That'd speed the response time tremendously. I'd thought of that. It still would be a problem. Think about it, companies will react to the tariff (which is an artificial trade restriction) in such a way as to maximize their profits in a suddenly new arena. These changes would most likely hurt the consumer, possibly a significant amount, so congress regulates new controls on the industry to reduce the new abuses, so businesses react to them, you get into a cycle, and all of the legislation is not easy to just remove once the tariffs are gone, and some of it will probably stay. Plus it just uses up a lot of time and resources for both sides (government and businesses) Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 2:08 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Language >1) What languages are spoken in the BP world? What are the official languages of the GEO, and what about the major regions of the Archipelago?< The top 11 languages in the world (spoken by 100 million or more people) are: Arabic (Modern Standard), Bengali, Chinese (Mandarin), English, French, German, Hindi-Urdu, Japanese, Portuguese, Russian, and Spanish. These are spoken by half the population of Earth and understood by 3/4. I'd think, even after the demographic fallout of the Blight, that these languages are still the most common. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 12:04 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction Chris Sakal wrote: > > Tariffs are not an easy or painless economic measure to use. Sure, any > government can tax any sort of import that it wants, but that will affect > the economy of the country as well and the company producing the product, > and the easiest thing for any corporation that finds itself locked out of a > market due to high tariffs to do is to simply sell elsewhere. But the U.S. can afford it more, and for longer, than the underdeveloped bits of the Pacific Rim. > Not only that, but Tariffs are terrible for consumers, they encourage > domestic businesses to simply raise their prices since they face reduced > competition, which has a whole host of other effects. Yes, but if the same company is also producing the same parts in a country which doens't have tarriffs against it, they'll just import them from there instead, and the tarriffs don't matter. Or another multinational will have access to untarriffed parts, and that'll keep the prices low. What you're talking about here are unfocused tarriffs. I'm talking about using them as more of a surgical measure. > Finally, they're a governmental regulation of economy, which means that > they can't move fast enough to keep up with a fast-paced world economy and > they're sure to be in place when they're not needed and probably to call > more regulatory legislation to support them that will cause problems > elsewhere. Which is why you build deactivating measures into the bill. The statute would create an agency, or empower an existing agency, to inspect countries and companies and exempt them from the tarriffs. The list of nations and companies wouldn't be set in the bill, like they usually are. That'd speed the response time tremendously. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.