From: Greg Childress [gregory.childress@yale.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 12:43 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) -----Original Message----- From: Auberon To: Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) > >That said, I do take some umbrage at a discussion being attacked by >someone not taking part in it as, also in no particular order, an outlet >for the egomania of those taking part, irrelevant, and ridiculous. Of >course it's irrelevant. If we were all U.S. Congressthings, it'd be >irrelevant. That doesn't mean that by the exchange of ideas, we can't >learn from it. I've been forced to reshape my thinking in various ways >by just about everyone, at least once. That is the purpose of >intellectual discourse. And if you don't mind, I'm going to continue to >do so through conversation with the various intelligent people on this list. > Any umbrage you took was on your own dollar. At no point did I suggest that anyone stop talking about anything; nor did I "attack" you. I simply stated in a rather direct fashion that no matter how careful ANYONE discussing such matters is, the fact that the conversation is about pragmatically irrelevant topics is going to cause the discussion to go in a certain direction. Namely that because it is pragmatically irrelevent, the perfectly valid and acceptable reasons for being interested in the topic begin to pollute the discussion. I then attempted to say something about that. NOW... I am truly sorry for having intruded on YOUR discussion (you will notice the utter lack of smily faces). I had not realized that you had pissed on it and marked it your own. Nor did I realize that your surveilliance technology was powerful enough to determine whether I was following the discussion. I will certainly step aside in favor of the alpha-male regular poster. You may rest safely tonight knowing that my tail is planted firmly between my legs. Greg *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 11:54 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... >>>>>Internal anatomy is similar, and so lungs and heart should be effective, especially under pressure.< Stab'em in the blow hole. Even if you don't manage to lodge your weapon in the hole, if you mangle the sphincter muscles that seal the it, the cetacean will drown when it tries to dive. >>>>>Maybe certain military hand-to-hand classes, but I would think that the strength and underwater agility differences would severely limit the effectiveness of humans in the cetacean's natural environment.< Maybe hand-to-hand is out, but not melee weapons. Against dolphins, simple nets would make effective weapons. Wait for the fin to make a beeline, then shift sideways at the last second and explode a self-deploying wire net in his face. He'd be simultaneously entangled and shredded by the thin, sharp wire. Ouch. Against orcas . . . I'd advise humans expecting to fight orcas to wear readily visible pouches of ground glass, razor blades, and assorted other nastiness in the hopes that the big guys eventually learn eating humans can lead to terminal indigestion. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 1:14 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... Robert P. Stefko said: >Against orcas . . . I'd advise humans expecting to fight orcas to wear >readily visible pouches of ground glass, razor blades, and assorted other >nastiness in the hopes that the big guys eventually learn eating humans can >lead to terminal indigestion. That, or a T-shirt that says "I'm wearing a THERMITE GRENADE wired to my heart!" Kai Poh, Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:12 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: > Hey Gordon, > > You asked some questions: > > 1) What kind of poisons work/don't work against cetaceans? > > >>>>Good question - I know that most mammals are sensitive to many of the same > toxins, but this in not always true. Any medicos or vets out there? Nah -- my sis is a pharmacy major and I've got an aunt who started out as an ordinary vet but ended up with a Ph.D. in fish pathology, I suppose I could check with them next time I see them. A general rule of thumb, though, would be that the *simpler* a toxin is, the more species it will affect. Something like curare would surely do the trick just as well against a cetacean as a human, not to mention actually corrosive substances such as my old-time favorite HF (aka The Acid That Even Chemists Fear). > Is there a special course needed to know how or where to... oh let's say... > stab a cetacean for maximum effect. > > >>>>Internal anatomy is similar, and so lungs and heart should be effective, > especially under pressure. Yeah. Ï'd like to see someone trying to strangle a dolphin, though. Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | Skyclad: "I am the king of all that I survey, www.pvv.org/~leifmk| beware my son, it could be yours one day. Math geek and gamer| Heir-transparent to a dynasty, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | dog-emperor of woe and misery." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:13 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Robert P. Stefko wrote: > >We also have on the list in no particular order: an ecology teacher, a > rocket scientist, at least two people who seem pretty handy with economics Who's the rocket scientist? I just play one in RPGs, is there someone else with a better claim to the title? Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | Skyclad: "I am the king of all that I survey, www.pvv.org/~leifmk| beware my son, it could be yours one day. Math geek and gamer| Heir-transparent to a dynasty, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | dog-emperor of woe and misery." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jerome DARMONT [darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:27 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Access Denied Just a comment, At 22:20 09/02/99 EST, BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: >I just got the final draft of the screen front today, and superlatives fail me >; ). It is simply the coolest. We paid about $1000 for it, and it was worth >every penny. Even if it were the only thing you got in Access Denied, I >guarrantee it would be worth the price of admission! I can not wait until you >get to see it! You guys take your time before issuing new stuff, but each time it kicks ass, so keep on with this policy! I prefer scarce high quality/high interest supplements to plenty of dull/prone to errata junk. (Now if you don't send me Nat. law after that!!! ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerome DARMONT, LIMOS, Universite Blaise Pascal - Clermont-Ferrand II mailto:darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr http://altern.org/darmont/ ICQ:8759237 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:41 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) Leif Magnar Kjønnøy wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Robert P. Stefko wrote: > > > >We also have on the list in no particular order: an ecology teacher, a > > rocket scientist, at least two people who seem pretty handy with economics > > Who's the rocket scientist? I just play one in RPGs, is there someone > else with a better claim to the title? You were doing pretty well in the weight/consumables calculations during the space arguments. Might not be an official title, but I was impressed. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 3:02 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Auberon wrote: > Leif Magnar Kjønnøy wrote: > > > > Who's the rocket scientist? I just play one in RPGs, is there someone > > else with a better claim to the title? > > You were doing pretty well in the weight/consumables calculations during > the space arguments. Might not be an official title, but I was impressed. Well, that's just the sad consequences of an education in "Applied Mathematics". Once you've been trained and drilled to model things mathematically and armed with 5 years of calculus (and sequels) plus lots of intermediate-level classes in a bunch of physics-related subjects where calculus comes in handy, it almost becomes difficult *not* to geek out over arguments like that. I'm trying to recover, though. Are there 12-step programs for geeks? Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | Skyclad: "I am the king of all that I survey, www.pvv.org/~leifmk| beware my son, it could be yours one day. Math geek and gamer| Heir-transparent to a dynasty, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | dog-emperor of woe and misery." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 3:07 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) Movin' this one off the list, as it's about as far from topic as is possible. Greg Childress wrote: > > Any umbrage you took was on your own dollar. At no point did I suggest > that anyone stop talking about anything; nor did I "attack" you. I simply >> Ultimately the reason that >> people want to talk about this sort of thing is that they want to >> demonstrate to the world that they are more >> 1) clear-headed >> 2) concerned >> 3) intelligent >> 4) well-informed >> 5) wise (or at least far-sighted) >> than the next guy. And having been one of the people talking about the thing being addressed, you wouldn't be a bit offended? If so, I commend you on being considerably more thick-skinned than anyone I've ever met, or even heard of. A veritable saint. Allow me to suggest, however, that if you look at the above statement objectively, you'd notice a rather holier-than-thou attitude, and further, that no one reacts very well to that kind of thing, but most of the folks on the list are introverts, and would let the whole thing drop. I, however, am on a personal quest for honest communiction. > stated in a rather direct fashion that no matter how careful ANYONE > discussing such matters is, the fact that the conversation is about > pragmatically irrelevant topics is going to cause the discussion to go in a > certain direction. Namely that because it is pragmatically irrelevent, the > perfectly valid and acceptable reasons for being interested in the topic > begin to pollute the discussion. I then attempted to say something about > that. I'll grant the latter. It happens often in various newsgroups or discussion groups. The trend, however, is only that. Look at the list archives. Any numer of discussions have come to that point, and either they die, or the discussion is explained to the party that needs it clarified, who joins it and it continues. > NOW... > I am truly sorry for having intruded on YOUR discussion (you will notice the > utter lack of smily faces). I had not realized that you had pissed on it It's not my discussion. It's OUR discussion; that of the list. I'm in the center because I believe that best way to refine my ideas is to present them to others, who will critique them, which allows me to revise my ideas with outside input, producing results I could never duplicate via internal dialog. I do not appreciate people who do not choose to participate in these activities telling the rest of us that we're egotistical > and marked it your own. Nor did I realize that your surveilliance > technology was powerful enough to determine whether I was following the > discussion. I will certainly step aside in favor of the alpha-male regular > poster. You may rest safely tonight knowing that my tail is planted firmly > between my legs. I was assuming that you had, as I can't imagine leaping in with a page long post about a discussion that I'd only read a single item from. Particularly if I was new to the group. Ergo, I assumed that you'd been lurking for a bit. You're welcome to join any thread you find on here. We (Robert and I, particularly) grouch at each other a lot. But please, decending from on high to judge the thread and all in it is a pretty bad way to start. Let's just chill out and have a discussion, rather than a running series of insults. That you noticed the trend of dick-waving arguments means you're not an idiot, so you've probably got some useful stuff to contribute. If you don't like confrontation, I'll warn you that Robert Stefko and I are the most likely to jump all over something you say, but we also both just like dialog, and tend to hot-forge out ideas, rather than watching them grow and form like crystals. I know people who can do the latter. I can't. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 3:19 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) Leif Magnar Kjønnøy wrote: > > Well, that's just the sad consequences of an education in "Applied > Mathematics". Once you've been trained and drilled to model things > mathematically and armed with 5 years of calculus (and sequels) plus lots 5 YEARS?!? I bombed calc II at least twice, and then decided that I should just let it lie and realize that I had NO idea. > of intermediate-level classes in a bunch of physics-related subjects where > calculus comes in handy, it almost becomes difficult *not* to geek out > over arguments like that. Physics I'm okay with. And don't get me wrong -- you made the discussion. Particularly the bits with the ice-based weapons. > I'm trying to recover, though. Are there 12-step programs for geeks? I think the first step involves accepting that their are women. Or at least, that's what I've heard. I'm not sure, myself. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Bray, Lee [Bray@petinf.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 3:53 AM To: 'Blue Planet List' Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals Hi all, Just thought I'd come out of lurk mode for the first time on this list. Firstly I'd like to say that I personally have found the Auberon-Robert F discussion on human impact on ecology/environment highly entertaining and pretty thought-provoking too. It's certainly helped me pass a few hours when I should have been working..... Anyway I do have one question concerning Blue Planet. Has anyone noticed the similarity between the GEO Marshals and the Judges of MegCity One (Judge Dredd etc)? This even goes down to the characteristics of their personal weapons which were detailed in one of the Undercurrent magazines. I await comments with interest. Cheers Lee *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jerome DARMONT [darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:19 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals At 09:53 10/02/99 -0000, Bray, Lee wrote: >Anyway I do have one question concerning Blue Planet. Has anyone noticed >the similarity between the GEO Marshals and the Judges of MegCity One >(Judge Dredd etc)? This even goes down to the characteristics of their >personal weapons which were detailed in one of the Undercurrent >magazines. I await comments with interest. Peter Church looks as fascist as Judge Dredd, for sure. :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerome DARMONT, LIMOS, Universite Blaise Pascal - Clermont-Ferrand II mailto:darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr http://altern.org/darmont/ ICQ:8759237 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:07 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals Actually, Marshall Church reminded me of nothing so much as a cybered-up version of Sean Connery's character in the lopsided but nonetheless entertaining film OUTLAND. Kai Poh, Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: pete rogers [peterogers@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 6:52 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... how about some melee weapons for fins. maybe a combat harness covered in blades. that way the fin could bolt past a human diver, salshing his suit on the way past. might be constricting, but i can imagine a psychotic orca with one of these on & a torp launcher - & the human divers in the area praying he doesn't run out of torps :) pete rogers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jerome DARMONT [darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:23 AM To: blue_planet@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - New web site & mailing list Follow Up Flag: Follow up Flag Status: Flagged Hi all, *kof kof kof* I'm proud to announce the birth of a French language mailing list dedicated to discussion about Blue Planet and its associated web site : http://altern.org/bpfr/ . The web site is rather thin right now, but should grow thanks to a collaborative effort. It should be translated in english ASAP (actually, as soon as I can ;). Feel free to visit, bookmark, reference and comment the web site! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerome DARMONT, LIMOS, Universite Blaise Pascal - Clermont-Ferrand II mailto:darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr http://altern.org/darmont/ ICQ:8759237 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ronald Johnson [ronjon@shore.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:01 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Marshals' targeting interlink On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Gordon Crookston wrote: > 2) The "gear" section of the BP book mentions a "gun-link" modification. > It also says that marshals have a special program loaded into their brains > that lets them NEVER miss. Is that supposed to be true? Do BP Marshals > never miss? If my memory serves correct, they only miss is they critically fail a Dex roll; otherwise they hit. Still, not too shabby. Cheers, Ron --- Ron Johnson Surf Poseidon! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:06 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - New web site & mailing list Jerome DARMONT said: > I'm proud to announce the birth of a French language mailing list >dedicated to >discussion about Blue Planet and its associated web site : > > http://altern.org/bpfr/ . Looks good. And I'm not just saying that because it's got a link to my friend Dave's page. By the way, I took the link to the www.sden.org BP site, and it looks great! I take it that it's the official French BP site? Kai Poh, Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jerome DARMONT [darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:21 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - New web site & mailing list At 06:05 10/02/99 PST, Tun Kai Poh wrote: >Looks good. And I'm not just saying that because it's got a link to my >friend Dave's page. ;) >By the way, I took the link to the www.sden.org BP site, and it looks >great! I take it that it's the official French BP site? No, it's actually a fan's page from a bigger site. It's good looking but rather empty. :( AFAIK, the French BP translators have no fixed name yet and no presence on the net. I'd very much like to get in touch with them, though... :) Hey... Would you agree that some of your texts be translated? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerome DARMONT, LIMOS, Universite Blaise Pascal - Clermont-Ferrand II mailto:darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr http://altern.org/darmont/ ICQ:8759237 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:39 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - New web site & mailing list Jerome DARMONT said: > No, it's actually a fan's page from a bigger site. It's good looking but >rather empty. :( AFAIK, the French BP translators have no fixed name yet >and no >presence on the net. I'd very much like to get in touch with them, >though... :) Hmm. I wonder if the fan remembered to get permission to use the Archipelago illustrations. I don't think Biohazard would mind, though. Free advertising and all. And it _is_ kinda empty, but at least it exists! The number of BP fan sites I know about has doubled in the past few days! Hey Jim, the French sites oughta be mentioned on the Biohazard links page... > Hey... Would you agree that some of your texts be translated? What, _my_ articles? Kai Poh, Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jerome DARMONT [darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:59 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - New web site & mailing list At 06:39 10/02/99 PST, Tun Kai Poh wrote: >Hmm. I wonder if the fan remembered to get permission to use the >Archipelago illustrations. I don't think Biohazard would mind, though. >Free advertising and all. I doubt he asked. The guy's already put some of my scenarios on one of his web pages without my consent nor mentioning my name... Partly why I prefer building a new page rather than helping him. >And it _is_ kinda empty, but at least it exists! The number of BP fan >sites I know about has doubled in the past few days! Hey Jim, the French >sites oughta be mentioned on the Biohazard links page... Oh yes, they should!! 8) >> Hey... Would you agree that some of your texts be translated? > >What, _my_ articles? Yup! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerome DARMONT, LIMOS, Universite Blaise Pascal - Clermont-Ferrand II mailto:darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr http://altern.org/darmont/ ICQ:8759237 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 9:55 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) >I'm trying to recover, though. Are there 12-step programs for geeks?< There were until Microsoft purchased the rights and bundled them into Bill Gates' personalized version of Windows 98. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:31 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... >how about some melee weapons for fins. maybe a combat harness covered in blades. that way the fin could bolt past a human diver, salshing his suit on the way past. might be constricting, but i can imagine a psychotic orca with one of these on & a torp launcher - & the human divers in the area praying he doesn't run out of torps :)< Try fin-sheaths (perforated to allow water flow over the extremities) edged with razorwire. A cetacean makes a close pass, swipes his opponent with a fin, and voila, instant vivisection. Fin-sheaths would be much less constricting than a full body harness (and easier to don than a frame studded with blades) and more analogous to human knives. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jerome DARMONT [darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:38 AM To: blue_planet@lists.MPGN.COM Cc: bpfr@egroups.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - French web site ...was so small it is already translated into English. http://altern.org/bpfr/english/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerome DARMONT, LIMOS, Universite Blaise Pascal - Clermont-Ferrand II mailto:darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr http://altern.org/darmont/ ICQ:8759237 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kevin C. Carpenter [kccarpenter@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:41 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Fw: National Geographic TV Special - Dolphins: The Wild Side (fwd) While we're on the subject of Cetacean HTH, I thought people might want to know about this dolphin special coming up. Sounds rather interesting. (It's off the MARMAM list) - Kevin C. Carpenter >NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC >TELEVISION >Presents the NBC Premiere Broadcast > > > >DOLPHINS: THE WILD SIDE > >Saturday, February 13, 1999 >8:00 pm >(Please check your local listing) > > >Narrated by: Stacy Keach > >Photographed and Directed by: Paul Atkins >Produced by: Grace Niska Atkins >Associate Producer: Anne Marie Hammers >Edited by: Emmanuel Mairesse >Written by: Kevin McCarey >Music by: the insects > > > "Supremely adapted to their water world, the dolphin family is >comprised of a variety of warm-blooded, intelligent animals that have >managed to exploit virtually every acquatic habitat. This Special reveals >the most up-to-date understanding of dolphins and shows us behavior that is >often astonishing and even shocking. For most people, thoughts of dolphins >bring to mind the beloved bottlenose -- the friendly "Flipper" of >television. But the popular image obscures the fascinating and complex >truth about dolphins. Far from cute, cuddly playthings, they are truly >wild animals. Intelligent and sometimes friendly, yes -- but they are also >devious, aggressive and even brutal. They are social hunters that have had >to develop a complex balance of cooperation and conflict to survive in an >often harsh, alien world." > > "Dolphins: The Wild Side,: a new National Geographic Special airing >on NBC, Saturday, February 13 at 8:00pm ET > (check local listings) > > > > > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 9:53 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) >On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Robert P. Stefko wrote: > >> >We also have on the list in no particular order: an ecology teacher, a rocket scientist, at least two people who seem pretty handy with economics Um, I didn't write that. Auberon did. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:15 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) >That said, I do take some umbrage at a discussion being attacked by >someone not taking part in it as, also in no particular order, an outlet >for the egomania of those taking part, irrelevant, and ridiculous. Of >course it's irrelevant. If we were all U.S. Congressthings, it'd be >irrelevant. That doesn't mean that by the exchange of ideas, we can't >learn from it. I've been forced to reshape my thinking in various ways >by just about everyone, at least once. That is the purpose of >intellectual discourse. And if you don't mind, I'm going to continue to >do so through conversation with the various intelligent people on this list. I think that the original post (please correct me if I'm wrong about this) was intended to express some frustration with the all-knowing-all-seeing-expert-opinion tone that was perceived in some of the previous messages in this thread, and was offered in the hopes of shutting off further progress along those lines. That said, I agree with the assertion that this discussion is worthy, even if irrelevant on a practical level. Who better to discuss the issue than the people who care enough about the issue to talk, have enough brains to have something to say, and are open-minded enough to have bought a role-playing game with environmental issues as its major themes? In short, I'm proud of the fact that this list has enough people with enough talents and skills to make reasonable assumptions and suggestions about the issue. Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:18 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... Robert Stefko wrote: >Stab'em in the blow hole. This is the funniest thing I have read in a long time. I think it's going to be my BP motto now. What a battle-cry! Don't shoot 'til you see the whites in their eyes! Stab 'em in the blowhole! Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:23 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) Namely that because it is pragmatically irrelevent, the >perfectly valid and acceptable reasons for being interested in the topic >begin to pollute the discussion. I'm sorry, but I don't understand that sentence. I'm not trying to pick nits (I have a machine for harvesting nits.), I just want to make sure I know what you mean. >NOW... >I am truly sorry for having intruded on YOUR discussion (you will notice the >utter lack of smily faces). I had not realized that you had pissed on it >and marked it your own. Nor did I realize that your surveilliance >technology was powerful enough to determine whether I was following the >discussion. I will certainly step aside in favor of the alpha-male regular >poster. You may rest safely tonight knowing that my tail is planted firmly >between my legs. Now hold on there, cowboy. I have been flamed worse than you were here, and I didn't take it personally. I took the assertion to mean that we hadn't heard from you yet, and therefore the first thing you said that we did hear was a (more or less total) indictment of our qualifications for taking part. I want to hear what you have to say (see my note earlier in this post). Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:25 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) No offense, but that makes you a rocket scientist in my book. Archangel > >On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Auberon wrote: > >> Leif Magnar Kjønnøy wrote: >> > >> > Who's the rocket scientist? I just play one in RPGs, is there someone >> > else with a better claim to the title? >> >> You were doing pretty well in the weight/consumables calculations during >> the space arguments. Might not be an official title, but I was impressed. > >Well, that's just the sad consequences of an education in "Applied >Mathematics". Once you've been trained and drilled to model things >mathematically and armed with 5 years of calculus (and sequels) plus lots >of intermediate-level classes in a bunch of physics-related subjects where >calculus comes in handy, it almost becomes difficult *not* to geek out >over arguments like that. > >I'm trying to recover, though. Are there 12-step programs for geeks? > >Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | Skyclad: "I am the king of all that I survey, >www.pvv.org/~leifmk| beware my son, it could be yours one day. >Math geek and gamer| Heir-transparent to a dynasty, >GURPS, Harn, CORPS | dog-emperor of woe and misery." > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:28 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals Very perceptive! I am a huge Judge Dredd fan, and I hadn't noticed the similarities. Now that I think about it, the image I carry of the Marshalls even LOOKS like a MegaCity Judge. Archangel >Hi all, > >Just thought I'd come out of lurk mode for the first time on this list. >Firstly I'd like to say that I personally have found the Auberon-Robert >F discussion on human impact on ecology/environment highly entertaining >and pretty thought-provoking too. It's certainly helped me pass a few >hours when I should have been working..... > >Anyway I do have one question concerning Blue Planet. Has anyone noticed >the similarity between the GEO Marshals and the Judges of MegCity One >(Judge Dredd etc)? This even goes down to the characteristics of their >personal weapons which were detailed in one of the Undercurrent >magazines. I await comments with interest. > >Cheers > > >Lee >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 12:15 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... >Robert Stefko wrote: > >>Stab'em in the blow hole. > > >This is the funniest thing I have read in a long time. I think it's going >to be my BP motto now. What a battle-cry! > >Don't shoot 'til you see the whites in their eyes! > >Stab 'em in the blowhole! Glad I could be of service. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:09 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... >A general rule of thumb, though, would be that the *simpler* a toxin is, >the more species it will affect. Something like curare would surely do >the trick just as well against a cetacean as a human, not to mention >actually corrosive substances such as my old-time favorite HF (aka The >Acid That Even Chemists Fear). Hydrofloric acid has lots of problems. It's not actually that strong of an acid, it's just that it happens to be an incredibly strong oxidizing agent as well. The same properties that make it dangerous also make it hard to work with, in that it will eat through things that acids normally can't get through given enough time, so you're really dealing something that's just as dangerous to you as the target there. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:07 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... >Stab'em in the blow hole. Even if you don't manage to lodge your weapon in >the hole, if you mangle the sphincter muscles that seal the it, the cetacean >will drown when it tries to dive. I would imagine that would depend on the amount of damage that gets done to the blowhole, and the dolphin will probably be aware that he shouldn't dive with that sort of injury, even if it's not genlifted (especially since according to the manual, genlifting doesn't really make dolphins smarter, it just makes them more understandable to humans) > >>>>>>Maybe certain military hand-to-hand classes, but I would think that the >strength and underwater agility differences would severely limit the >effectiveness of humans in the cetacean's natural environment.< > >Maybe hand-to-hand is out, but not melee weapons. Against dolphins, simple >nets would make effective weapons. Wait for the fin to make a beeline, then >shift sideways at the last second and explode a self-deploying wire net in >his face. He'd be simultaneously entangled and shredded by the thin, sharp >wire. Ouch. The only problem with that being that the dolphin is a hell of a lot faster and more maneauverable than a human under water, so I'm just not seeing that last minute quick dash aside happening. > >Against orcas . . . I'd advise humans expecting to fight orcas to wear >readily visible pouches of ground glass, razor blades, and assorted other >nastiness in the hopes that the big guys eventually learn eating humans can >lead to terminal indigestion. The Cthorr proposal? That's not going to work against a genlifted Orca. Probably your best bet against an orca, if you don't happen to have a minitorp launcher on you, which is what you really need, is to try to latch onto the ventral surface and just bore your way in with anything sharp until you kill it. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [csakal@erols.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:02 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) >I don't know that taxation has entered the conversation at all, except >as a side note that there'd be some effect on the taxes you pay if big >tax credits were given as incentives to corporations that operated >within some definition of "shiny-happy-eco-friendly". Well, we were talking about Tariffs, which are taxes, and they are "progressive" - so they fall on the rich disproportionately hard. >That said, I do take some umbrage at a discussion being attacked by >someone not taking part in it as, also in no particular order, an outlet >for the egomania of those taking part, irrelevant, and ridiculous. Of >course it's irrelevant. If we were all U.S. Congressthings, it'd be >irrelevant. That doesn't mean that by the exchange of ideas, we can't >learn from it. I've been forced to reshape my thinking in various ways >by just about everyone, at least once. That is the purpose of >intellectual discourse. And if you don't mind, I'm going to continue to >do so through conversation with the various intelligent people on this list. The problem with promoting the free exchange of ideas is that you really can't use it to try to stop somebody from saying their piece, even if that happens to be that other people should not say theirs. If you really want a free exchange of ideas, then you have to allow the possibility that the position that some ideas should not be forwarded should also be entertained. Chris Sakal csakal@erols.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:54 PM To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... > -----Original Message----- > From: Tun Kai Poh [mailto:t_poh@hotmail.com] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... > > That, or a T-shirt that says "I'm wearing a THERMITE GRENADE > wired to my heart!" > > Kai Poh, Malaysian Lagomorph > For some reason this caused a cascade failure beginning with the statement "I'm wearing a thermite grenade in my underwear" and ending with soda coming out my nose. Fortunately it missed the keyboard. Ah well ... Jim H. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:57 PM To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... > -----Original Message----- > From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [mailto:leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... > > Ï'd like to see someone trying to strangle a dolphin, though. > > Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | Skyclad: "I am the king of all that I survey, > One of the things we need to remember is that most cetaceans have lungs that are 80% (a conservative figure) more efficient than any human. My first comment would have been to plug the blowhole with an object but after reflection it seems that it would probably be easy for them to blow it out (like us blowing our nose). Jim H. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:59 PM To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Rocket Scientist (was: Humans and Ecological Destruction) > -----Original Message----- > From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [mailto:leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) > > Who's the rocket scientist? I just play one in RPGs, is there someone > else with a better claim to the title? > > Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | Skyclad: "I am the king of all that I survey, > My undergraduate degree is from the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering (1986). Sadly I haven't used it enough and most of my detailed knowledge has atrophied. Also sadly I haven't had the time to go over your detailed messages about orbital mechanics (months ago now). Jim H. Jim Heivilin, Webmaster Biohazard Games mailto:ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu http://www.biohazardgames.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 6:02 PM To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerome DARMONT [mailto:darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals > > Peter Church looks as fascist as Judge Dredd, for sure. :) > But Val Kilmer/Sean Connery (a young one) as Peter Church is waaayyyy cooler than Stallone as Judge Dredd. IMHO. Jason's "In the Service of Justice" piece gave me goose bumps from the very first time I read it (years ago now). I can see John Woo directing that! Jim H. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 6:38 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - New web site & mailing list Hey Kai, You write: I wonder if the fan remembered to get permission to use the Archipelago illustrations. I don't think Biohazard would mind, though. Free advertising and all. >>>>He didn't, we wouldn't (if asked) and yes it is ; ). Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 6:38 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: De-lurking and GEO Marshals Hey Lee, As usual, our list members are astute... The original inspiration behind the GEO Marshals was in fact Connery's character from Outland, and their role in law enforcement (with hopefully a more realistic tone) is Judge Dreddish. Later, Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: rql [rqlii@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:29 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetaceanocide I would think the best weapon for fighting Orcas (melee weapon that is) would be an old fashioned bang-stick they used on sharks. I really don't see most blades as doing enough damage to keep it from biting you in half before you could stab it multiple times to incapacitate it. Just my opinion. Daque - Diver Genie Warden (License revoked) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:19 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals Archangel Gabriel wrote: > > Very perceptive! I am a huge Judge Dredd fan, and I hadn't noticed the > similarities. Now that I think about it, the image I carry of the Marshalls > even LOOKS like a MegaCity Judge. Actually, I was picturing something not totally unlike a Dredd comic when I read "To the service of justice" That said, we should kill this thread before Marvel Lawyers decend on our Biohazard buddies. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 6:38 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... Hello, Regarding cetacean melee weapons: My personal favorite - a pair of dolphins swimming at speed, with a length of molecular wire strung between their harnesses. 'Nuff said! Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:24 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) Archangel Gabriel wrote: > > > Namely that because it is pragmatically irrelevent, the > >perfectly valid and acceptable reasons for being interested in the topic > >begin to pollute the discussion. > > > I'm sorry, but I don't understand that sentence. I'm not trying to pick I believe that he was commenting on the fact that since people usually get into discussions on ecology/conservation because they have strong feelings about the subject (me, I just like dialog. I'd argue about nearly anything). In the absence of verifiable data, these kind of threads tend to degenerate into flame wars. Fortunately, we've got a lot of intelligent, interested (though not foaming-at-the-mouth fanatics) people, not a few of whom do have data, or at least currently accepted theories, based on observational data and models. > nits (I have a machine for harvesting nits.), I just want to make sure I > know what you mean. Do you have the patent? Are you selling them? -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:13 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - New web site & mailing list Jerome DARMONT said: > I doubt he asked. The guy's already put some of my scenarios on one of his web >pages without my consent nor mentioning my name... Partly why I prefer >building a new page rather than helping him. Now _that's_ rude. I don't suppose he'd take them down if you asked? Regarding the translating of my articles, expect a private email reply on that... Kai Poh, Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 9:19 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) Chris Sakal wrote: > > The problem with promoting the free exchange of ideas is that you really > can't use it to try to stop somebody from saying their piece, even if that > happens to be that other people should not say theirs. If you really want Which you're welcome to do. In fact, you've done it to me. What I was objecting to was the ad hominim attacks in the post. If you want to attack my logic, or a premise I throw out there, cool. In fact, I encourage it. I just don't enjoy having my personality attacked. > a free exchange of ideas, then you have to allow the possibility that the > position that some ideas should not be forwarded should also be entertained. Which is, I agree, a part of the exchange. And such suggestions have been forwarded at least once for pretty much any thread that's happened on this list that's passed 10 messages. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.