From: Jerome DARMONT [darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:17 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - New web site & mailing list At 18:12 10/02/99 PST, Tun Kai Poh wrote: >Now _that's_ rude. I don't suppose he'd take them down if you asked? Nope. He argued he didn't have access to his pages any more. Anyway, he is hosted by an association I belong to, and I've just been appointed webmaster... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerome DARMONT, LIMOS, Universite Blaise Pascal - Clermont-Ferrand II mailto:darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr http://altern.org/darmont/ ICQ:8759237 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 1:46 AM To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Heivilin, Jim wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [mailto:leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] > > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... > > > > > Ï'd like to see someone trying to strangle a dolphin, though. > > > One of the things we need to remember is that most cetaceans have lungs that > are 80% (a conservative figure) more efficient than any human. My first > comment would have been to plug the blowhole with an object but after > reflect it seems that it would probably be easy for them to blow it out > (like us blowing our nose). Yeah, and can't they also breathe through the mouth? And even if you do manage to clamp down on all breathing orifices, dolphins are known to be pretty strong *and* able hold their breath for minutes of vigorous activity. My comment about strangling was intended even a bit more literally, though. Strangling is a bit more specific than just suffocating; a human can be suffocated in any number of ways (pillow over the face, dumped into oxygenless atmosphere, etc), but to *strangle* someone you need to put your hands (or equivalent) on your victim's throat and squeeze. Dolphins don't exactly have an exposed throat you can get your hands on in the first place. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:57 AM To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Rocket Scientist (was: Humans and Ecological Destruction) On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Heivilin, Jim wrote: > > From: Leif Magnar Kjønnøy [mailto:leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no] > > Who's the rocket scientist? I just play one in RPGs, is there someone > > else with a better claim to the title? > > > My undergraduate degree is from the University of Illinois at Urbana > Champaign in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering (1986). Sadly I > haven't used it enough and most of my detailed knowledge has atrophied. > Also sadly I haven't had the time to go over your detailed messages about > orbital mechanics (months ago now). Well, then, your claim to the title "rocket scientist" is probably better than mine (although, as someone smarter than me once remarked after some NASA screwup, these days you don't have to be a rocket scientist to be a rocket scientist). Um, er... does anyone want to talk about mathematically modelling the population densities of interacting species (predator/prey, competitors for the same food, etc)? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jason Hockley [jh596@soton.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 4:32 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:18:57 -0900 Auberon wrote: > Archangel Gabriel wrote: > > > > Very perceptive! I am a huge Judge Dredd fan, and I hadn't noticed the > > similarities. Now that I think about it, the image I carry of the Marshalls > > even LOOKS like a MegaCity Judge. > > Actually, I was picturing something not totally unlike a Dredd comic > when I read "To the service of justice" > > That said, we should kill this thread before Marvel Lawyers decend on > our Biohazard buddies. Marvel? Judge Dredd is from an English comic called 2000AD. As far as I know Marvel have nothing to do with it. I could be wrong though. Jason ---------------------- Jason Hockley jh596@soton.ac.uk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: pete rogers [peterogers@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 5:58 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals > Marvel? Judge Dredd is from an English comic called >2000AD. As far as I know Marvel have nothing to do with it. >I could be wrong though. correct. but between the Judge Dredd/Batman crossovers & the film i'm not sure who the hell owns him now ! "Gaze ino the face of Fear" "Gaze into the fist of Dredd !" pete rogers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Alan M. Nuss [amnuss@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:49 AM To: Blue Planet digest Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - reference book I came across an excelent book while shoping in Sam's Discount Wharehouse. Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises by Mark Carwardine ISBN 1-56458-620-0 A very handy book. Color plates showning what each species looks like, where they can be found, some anatomy. Families and Species covered (starting on page 38 and ending on page 249) Right and Gray Whales Rorqual Whales Sperm Whales Narwhal and Beluga Beaked Whales Blackfish Oceanic Dolphins with Prominent Beaks Oceanic Dolphins without Prominent Beaks River Dolpnins Porpoises There are species here that I never heard of. Can offer some variation in creating cetacean characters. Alan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gordon Crookston [gordoncr@sympatico.ca] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:44 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM I think all of us realize that we can't solve the problems of World Ecology/Economy/Sociology - and whatever other "-OLOGY" you want. But that's not really the purpose of this list - all we ever asked were the questions "Why does this happen" and "In a perfect world what, IN YOUR OPINION, would make a difference." (or something analogous to that...) and allows very smart people to answer those questions. More so than that, it allows people to vent their frustrations towards the practices of morally dubious systems everywhere. Personally, I feel it's kind of nice to release those feelings in an environment shared by others of the same concern (we're all here for the game, after all). Because if I didn't get that release of tension, then I might end up as a silent mail list lurker, my anger and irritation building, and building, until I snap like a twig and let loose with an Email I might just regret later... Boy, it's a good thing I'm not like that. Anyways. I've noticed that the game applies the word "sentient" to the aborigines. But it also describes them as having no real individual consciousness, simply a genetic/biologic - ally determined function. I can understand the sentience, I'm sure they have intelligence... but do they have consciousness? Do they realize that they exist in that special Descartian way? They have no culture, no religion, no mythology (after all, Religion and Mythology are the two fundamentals every conscious society needs). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 9:33 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gordon Crookston wrote: > > Anyways. I've noticed that the game applies the word "sentient" to the >aborigines. But it also describes them as having no real individual >consciousness, simply a >genetic/biologic - ally determined function. I can understand the >sentience, I'm sure they have intelligence... but do they have >consciousness? Do they realize that they exist in that special Descartian >way? They have no culture, no religion, no mythology (after all, Religion >and Mythology are the two fundamentals every conscious society needs). This raises some deep questions about what is and isn't intelligence. Does complex genetic programming that mimics the behavior of consciousness in detail represent consciousness itself? The aborigines are genetically programmed to do what they do, but they interpret the programming and seem to come up with answers of their own. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Also I suspect that they do have a Religion and Mythology (although I have no real evidence). Their creators no doubt hold the position of Gods, and a species with a chemical memory stored in the water they live in MUST have some lingering stories that could count as Myth. Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kevin C. Carpenter [kccarpenter@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 10:59 AM To: blue_planet@TanSoft.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - reference book Yeah, that's a great book. I've used it quite a bit, both for Blue Planet and some of my own cetacean-inspired creations. If you're interested in some good insight into dolphin behaviors and other aspects check out 'Save The Dolphins' by Michael Donoghue and Annie Wheeler. (ISBN 0-924486-07-4) It also has some useful information on ecological threats that they face. - Kevin C. Carpenter >I came across an excelent book while shoping in Sam's Discount >Wharehouse. > >Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises >by Mark Carwardine >ISBN 1-56458-620-0 > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 11:39 AM To: blue_planet@TanSoft.COM Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean HtH... Hello Leif, You write: Yeah, and can't they [cetaceans] also breathe through the mouth? >>>>A point of biological trivia - cetaceans to not have a pharynx that interconnects their respiratory and digestive tracts like most other mammals. The passages are separate systems. Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:38 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) ACCESS DENIED Archangel Gabriel wrote: > > This raises some deep questions about what is and isn't intelligence. Does > complex genetic programming that mimics the behavior of consciousness in > detail represent consciousness itself? The aborigines are genetically Well, they've got the problem solving skills to be called intelligent. What the real question is, is whether they in fact are capable of the conception of "I". If you show an abo a mirror, does it attack, like a chicken, or clean its whatever, like a chimp? That's the important question -- if they can concieve of the self, then they can concieve of, and model the responses of, others. Or so the argument goes. It is a good question. > programmed to do what they do, but they interpret the programming and seem > to come up with answers of their own. If it looks like a duck and quacks > like a duck... Then it's a parrot or a raven. Those are the two birds shown to have some abstract problem solving skills and some measure of inspiration. Inspiration, it turns out, is a rare thing in nature. Cetaceans, parrots, ravens, and humans are the only ones I know for sure possess it, tho I suspect that if I weren't so lazy, I could find articles showing that chimps, oran-utans (sp?), and possibly gorrillas (great apes, all) display it, too. > Also I suspect that they do have a Religion and Mythology (although I have > no real evidence). Their creators no doubt hold the position of Gods, and a > species with a chemical memory stored in the water they live in MUST have > some lingering stories that could count as Myth. What they'd have, from what the book says, is more akin to a philosophy. They have the sure knowledge that they were created for a purpose, and that serving that purpose is the only reason for being. In a way, they're all fundamentalists (harkening back to an old thread). Whether that allows for much individualization, or whether they even conciously carry out that purpose, is another question altogether. An amusing aside that I hadn' thought about before: If abos are concious, there's the possibility of one "losing its faith" as it were. Or maybe they have rebellious teenagers, just like higher mammels. What a cool adventure idea. An abo tries (probably repeatedly) to make contact with the players, probably eventually being killed or kidnapped by others, but only after leaving the characters with the knowledge, but no proof, that the abos are intelligent and aware. A corollary to that is, what if there was a group of heretic abos who'd decided that *humans* are the creators? It'd make any character interactions with abos that much more confusing. They see one group, which drives away a lesser white. Later, they a group (could they tell the difference?) doing something incriminating. Or swimming away from a villiage that's all asleep. Don't tell the characters what's going on, of course. But watch them get their brains all twisted up. And, of course, the academic reputation of any brains in the group would be flushed by any articles they wrote, no matter how much footage they had. Where'd the footage go, anyway? Hehe. Comments? -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:39 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Gordon Crookston wrote: > > that release of tension, then I might end up as a silent mail list lurker, > my anger and irritation building, and building, until I snap like a twig > and let loose with an Email I might just regret later... > > Boy, it's a good thing I'm not like that. Yeah, I hate that. I just go into a K-mart with a chainsaw. :-> -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:41 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - De-lurking and GEO Marshals Jason Hockley wrote: > > Marvel? Judge Dredd is from an English comic called > 2000AD. As far as I know Marvel have nothing to do with it. > I could be wrong though. Marvel bought it, maybe 6 mos ago. I don't know/remember whether they bought 2000AD right out, but they bought Judge Dredd and serialized it in a standard-format comic book. I don't think it's even in 2000AD any more. Curse curse curse. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:23 PM To: BP list Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecology Here's something I got from my news service today that's oddly on point. http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2558405704-99a -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 10:48 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Crookston To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 5:57 AM > Anyways. I've noticed that the game applies the word "sentient" to the >aborigines. But it also describes them as having no real individual >consciousness, simply a >genetic/biologic - ally determined function. I can understand the >sentience, I'm sure they have intelligence... but do they have >consciousness? Do they realize that they exist in that special Descartian >way? They have no culture, no religion, no mythology (after all, Religion >and Mythology are the two fundamentals every conscious society needs). Hopefully, it's difficult to answer this question without human bias. That is, can we as humans recognize a form of consciousness that is fundamentally different than human self-awareness. Greg Benage Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: c718678@showme.missouri.edu Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 11:17 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Humans and Ecological Destruction (LONG) Warning: The following message contains no ideas relevant to Blue Planet. On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Auberon wrote: > Leif Magnar Kjønnøy wrote: > > > I'm trying to recover, though. Are there 12-step programs for geeks? > > I think the first step involves accepting that their are women. Or at > least, that's what I've heard. I'm not sure, myself. There are women. But that's not in the 12-step program for geeks, which is the following: 1) Get laid. 2) Get laid again, but this time, refrain from calculating the tensile strength of his/her skin and hair 3) Watch MTV, particularly Beavis and Butthead 4) Ask the following question, "Groups, rings, and fields - is that some kinda hippie band?" 5) Collect baseball cards. Ignore the stats. 6) Tip cows. 7) Destroy all of your porn, including your Victoria's Secret catalogs and your poster of Marina Sirtis fully clothed. (Trust me on this one.) Learn to type with both hands. 8) Take down the integral lists from your walls. You don't have to destroy those: that's too harsh. 9) Integrate phrases like "a lot", "a little", and "kinda" into your daily speech. Use them to replace numbers. Talk about the "size" of something instead of the magnitude or dimension. If that's to difficult, switch to the English system. 10) Realize that being a math geek is who you are and feel comforted that you're not a karaoke geek. Get laid again, this time by someone who repulses you so that you can also feel comforted that you're not a sex geek. Repeat the process until you believe it. 11) Accept that there are only 11 steps in this 12 step process. Later, Eva @@@(* > *)@@@ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.