From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 2:28 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) Chris Sakal wrote: > > Actually, I play, but don't run, so I've been careful not to read the > access denied sections, so I didn't know that, my bad. Also, what I was > refering to when I said that was the arguments from genetic similarity, > obviously, it makes me look a bit stupid to find out that the main book > disagrees with what I'm saying, I can only plead ignorance because I'm such > a good, restrained player ^_^. Ah hah. Now we *really* know you're up to something! No player is that squeaky! ;-> -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@uaf.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:07 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) c718678@showme.missouri.edu wrote: > > Self-sacrifice for offspring or even for other family members is NOT the > same as self-sacrifice for another species because when mama sacrifices > herself to save her baby birdies or whatever, her babies live and pass on > her genes. The same can work for brothers and sisters, too, which is why > there are insect species with sterile classes (bees, ants). HOWEVER, > self-sacrifice for another SPECIES wouldn't pass on the genes that cause > the self-sacrificial behavior and wouldn't become a common trait in that > species. While we may agrue about the amount of influence of genetics in > human behavior, its pretty clear that genetic instinct is the driving > force behind non-intelligent life, so behavior that solely helps (or > hurts) another species WOULD NOT GET PASSED ON. > This is why Darwin said that if it were shown that any species had a > behavior that solely helped (or hurt) another species, with no positive > effects on the species doing the behavior, then his theory of evolution > would be disprooved, and he was correct to say so. I don't see how a behavior whose effect is neutral to the species doing the behaving, and detrimental to another species, would disproove the theory. It could just be an artifact of a behavior which was at one time necessary, and simply happens to be bad for someone else now. Putting yourself out to help or hurt another species would be silly, however. > Since the aborigines do help other species (the rest of native POseidon) > with no positive effects on their own survival or reproduction, its a Since the reproduction and habits of the abos are not (generally) known, these conclusions can't yet be drawn, except possibly by a GM. > potentially observable fact that aborigines are NOT a product of > evolution. If somehow someone managed to observe this without getting > mind-controlled, killed, or discredited, it would mean big trouble for > anyone on a listserve that debates the origins of life. hehe -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= "I never get involved in my own life. It's too much trouble" - Michael Garibaldi (Babylon 5) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:38 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating a change in definition. I'm simply trying to assert that it is in fact possible for natural forces to select for the trait of altruism. The conceptual definition of evolution that I offered was simply to clarify the message. Sorry it clouded it further. Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:51 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) I once made a very similar argument with a friend of mine, who said something that still bothers me. He said, "If we are the species in question, we *cannot* know for certain that we are beyond evolutionary pressure because we cannot perceive the pressures themselves." This sounds ridiculous, but the more I have thought about it the more reasonable it sounds. -----Original Message----- From: c718678@showme.missouri.edu To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) >Enlightened self-interest isn't the same as acting purely for the benefit >of another species. And a group of individuals' behaviors doesn't >necessarily >consitute an evolutionary trait. I must have lost the train of this then. I was mentioning enlightened self-interest only to illustrate that evolution can produce altruism. In the case of the abos the collective behaviors are genetically programmed, and thus *not* the direct result of evolution, but that doesn't mean that less single-minded altruist species couldn't exist. Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Archangel Gabriel [angelgabriel@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:59 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) (oh yeah, and ACCESS DENIED) >Since the aborigines do help other species (the rest of native POseidon) >with no positive effects on their own survival or reproduction, its a >potentially observable fact that aborigines are NOT a product of >evolution. If somehow someone managed to observe this without getting >mind-controlled, killed, or discredited, it would mean big trouble for >anyone on a listserve that debates the origins of life. Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have time to look this up in the BP book because they won't let me keep it at work :(), but the policing of Poseidon's ecology is a survival trait for the abos. Their genetic memory is dependent upon the chemical content of Poseidon's oceans, ne? In this case a detailed and dedicated micromanagement of Poseidon's ecology is a requirement for their survival. Archangel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: c718678@showme.missouri.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:17 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) I hadn't interpreted it that way, but now that you mention it I think you're right, in which case the question of altruism is a moot point. Later, Eva @@@(* > *)@@@ On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Archangel Gabriel wrote: > (oh yeah, and ACCESS DENIED) > > > > > > > > > > > > >Since the aborigines do help other species (the rest of native POseidon) > >with no positive effects on their own survival or reproduction, its a > >potentially observable fact that aborigines are NOT a product of > >evolution. If somehow someone managed to observe this without getting > >mind-controlled, killed, or discredited, it would mean big trouble for > >anyone on a listserve that debates the origins of life. > > > Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have time to look this up in the BP book > because they won't let me keep it at work :(), but the policing of > Poseidon's ecology is a survival trait for the abos. Their genetic memory > is dependent upon the chemical content of Poseidon's oceans, ne? In this > case a detailed and dedicated micromanagement of Poseidon's ecology is a > requirement for their survival. > > Archangel > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Planewalker [fleschneab13@uwwvax.uww.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:24 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - AKED T-32 and T-38 "Longarm" (AD) This is a gun I made a while back. I have some others on disk, inculding an interesting twist to field weapons.... Lemme know if your interested. Planewalker AKED T-32 and T-38 ""Longarm"" On the frontiers of Poseidon, there is no doubt that at many times, a person's best friend can be a firearm. You can hunt with it, signal others with it, and defend yourself against the unknown wilds of the bush. However, there is one fundamental problem with conventional firearms: they are a separate item from your person, and when that item is removed from you, you are defenseless. Many horror stories are told by Wardens of the time their friend couldn't get to his weapon in time to fend off a native animal. Fortunately, AKED Securities has been listening to the stories, and we have the solution to prevent such stories from becoming commonplace: The T-32 and T- 38 ""Longarm"" series of automatic firearms. The "Longarm" series is a simple variation of conventional firearm manufacturing techniques. We take common weapon components and rearrange them to produce a flat design. We then re-position the binary propellant and ammunition clips to the top back portion of the weapon. After all of that, we place the weapon in a casing designed to fit over the forearm to allow full use of both hands. If used in conjunction with current neural jack technology, you can fire the weapon without moving a hand muscle. Simply move your arm and think. It's that simple! The weapon is bonded to a form-fitting fabric sleeve to allow the user to simply slide their arm into the sleeve and use the weapon. The triggerless firing mechanism is placed in a bar that your hand wraps around, allowing ease of use in almost any situation. For those times when you need to be armed and ready, but also need to carry items, a built-in safety feature prevents the gun from going off in the next three presses of the trigger. (The number of presses can be changed by the owner.) And what if you just want to carry the weapon but don't expect combat? The bar flips up to allow full use of your hand. Should an unexpected firefight arise, a press of the release mechanism at the side of the gun flips the bar forward in less than half a second, minimizing your response time. The T-32 and T-38 both take standard bioplastic shells and binary propellant canisters, and both weapons confirm to GEO safety codes in all areas of performance. In fact, the "Longarm" series is rated highest in the area of durability than any other sidearm. Our use of top-quality industrial bioplastic, combined with patented chemicals for the prevention of fast fungus and other biological corrosives, makes the T-32 and T-38 the most reliable weapon you can have with you in the backwaters of Poseidon. The wilds of Poseidon are never reliable in their response. Make sure your firearm is. Order the "Longarm" today! ACCESS DENIED The T-32 and T-38 are exactly what they seem to be: small automatic weapons placed made for carrying along the forearm rather than in the hand. This poses some unique problems and uses for the weapon. The weapon is fully automatic, but it's ammo is standard light or heavy caliber pistol ammo (the T-32 takes light ammo, the T-38 take heavy.) Therefore, the damage it does is the same as those handguns. The advantage is that the "Longarm" throws them out of the gun quicker. And even though the gun is essentially a submachine gun, the weapon is slightly larger and bulkier than a normal gun, allowing a larger binary propellant canister and larger ammo clips, which also makes the "Longarm" desirable. The safety mechanism works for the most part. It's up to the storyteller to decide if the mechanism works all of the time, though. If not, assign a small chance of failure, say 2-5%, when the user has the trigger bar down and isn't paying attention. Note that with a neural jack, the user doesnıt even need the trigger bar down. Many people with an uplink jack are looking at this weapon for the ease-of-use factor. Think about it; if you could purchase a weapon that essentially becomes a part of you, that would be a pretty good investment. The weapon is made of a very high-quality bioplastic that retains it's strength, but is half the weight of normal industrial. Many people are beginning to wonder where they get their supplies. AKED is keeping the secret under wraps for now, but the GEO is planning an investigation team; if a bioplastic could be developed that was proof against fast fungus, it would be a breakthrough in engineering on Poseidon. AKED is keeping quiet, though, and for good reason‹they really donıt know why the plastic is like that. The only explanation they have is the fact that several soft spurts were seen breeding in the bioplastic growth tanks and laid eggs there. The soft spurts were removed safely, and the eggs removed, but the plastic in those tanks has never quite grown right ever since. Only two of the original tanks remain functional, and the others were destroyed by the sanitation system and fast fungus. These tanks have taken three times as long to produce a batch of bioplastic, but the plastic is amazingly resilient to biologically-induced corrosion. Microscopic study shows that thereıs something in the plastic, but itıs hard to tell exactly what. It might be a fungus of some sort, but the significance of that fact eludes scientists. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: c718678@showme.missouri.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:31 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Abo conciousness (ACCESS DENIED) On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Archangel Gabriel wrote: > I once made a very similar argument with a friend of mine, who said > something that still bothers me. He said, "If we are the species in > question, we *cannot* know for certain that we are beyond evolutionary > pressure because we cannot perceive the pressures themselves." This sounds Why not? I know why this is true when talking about dimesnions or set theory, but I don't see why we wouldn't be able to see the evolutionary pressures if we studied that sort of thing. We know some of them, like selecting for people without untreatable lethal diseases that kill before reproducive age, and slecting for highly potent people, why should we think that we couldn't see others? > I must have lost the train of this then. I was mentioning enlightened > self-interest only to illustrate that evolution can produce altruism. In > the case of the abos the collective behaviors are genetically programmed, > and thus *not* the direct result of evolution, but that doesn't mean that > less single-minded altruist species couldn't exist. Enlightened self-interest in not pure altruism. Nature cannot select for pure altruism. If indeed the survival of the aborigines is dependant on how well they do helping the rest of the planet, than its not altruism and that's a moot point. If the aborigines protect the rest of Poseidon because its "their duty" but not because their survival/reproduction depends on it, then its altruism, which nature cannot select for. Evolution cannot produce pure altruism. Later, Eva @@@(* > *)@@@ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: c718678@showme.missouri.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 10:41 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - AKED T-32 and T-38 "Longarm" (AD) I like! Imagine all the fun arm-angles one could shoot from - might hurt the ol' elbow cartiledge a dose, but its better then getting eaten. Jolly Access Denied, too:) Later, Eva @@@(* > *)@@@ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.