From: Cedric M. BoB PONCHY [ponchy@club-internet.fr] Sent: Friday, 20 March, 1998 2:54 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Copyright (OT) Very off topic but as we have games designers here, maybe they can help... > From: William Hindmarch > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:35:00 -0600 (CST) [...] > That's the most important thing anyone learns in a Legal Aspects of > Film/Theatre/Literature/Music/Art/Whatever course. Concepts and ideas are > not copyrightable. No one can copyright the notion of a planet whose surface [...] I heard that in the states, White Wolf copyrighted the concept of CCG (I can't think of a better wording), as every company making a new CCG must pay them royalties. Is it true or BS ? I also heard that the famous "tap" action was copyrighted too. I have an example: LZW compression *algorithm* is copyrighted in the USA, as is the GIF file format, and what is a file format beyond a way to organize datas ? Isn't a file format something close to a concept. Can you copyright mathematic formulas in the states ? In France, you can't. But if it's possible in the States, would the BP game mechanics fall in this area, as action resolution is merely a function taking input parameters and outputing values ? -- Those who forget the past are condemned to fulfill it. --George Santayana, Life of Reason Those who do not archive the past are condemned to retype it! --Garfinkel and Spafford, Practical UNIX Security (first edition) -- Cédric PONCHY, The BoB Master ///\Oo/\\\ ponchy@club-internet.fr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Hindmarch [hindmarc@stu.beloit.edu] Sent: Friday, 20 March, 1998 0:11 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Brazil Copyright [OT] > Well...about RPG books...I have lots of books, none it's photocopied, and I don't let > nobody photocipy my books. But isn't because I gonna break the law, or not, but because > it can just ruin my books. That's the point. > > The copyright laws here, suffer from a problem, the is political and economical, and just > don't exactly fit in internacional laws. But, a book published here, will have full > support of law. The question is...who will finger, or arrest somebody because he has a > photocopy of a book? Hardly this will happen. > > So...we have the laws, but must people, just don't obbey. That's a really good point. If I had thought my post through I would've remembered a copy of Vampire: The Masquerade and Champions that a friend of mine has from his days at Office Max. Legal? No... but performed nonetheless. I was reporting second-hand legal reports as it is. I (sadly) have never left the country. :( [And, let me add, all of my books are originals as well. Xerox copies just feel fake - and they fall apart in one or two sessions. I've heard.] wil *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jason A Werner [c577200@showme.missouri.edu] Sent: Friday, 20 March, 1998 10:11 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Copyright (OT) Cedric M. BoB PONCHY wrote: > I heard that in the states, White Wolf copyrighted the concept of CCG (I can't > think of a better wording), as every company making a new CCG must pay them > royalties. Is it true or BS ? I also heard that the famous "tap" action was > copyrighted too. My understanding of the whole CCG thing is this: When Wizards of the Coast first published Magic: The Gathering, they filed for a _patent_ (note, not copyright) on the product. It took a while for the patent to work its way through the government red tape, but was eventually approved. As a result, if other corporations wish to use the CCG concept, they are required to purchase a liscence from WotC or face legal action. Now, I'm not entirely sure on what you can and cannot copyright, but all sorts of things can be patented. An example from my field, molecules are patented all the time. It's not all that much more complicated to make a 3rd generation cephalosporin than it is to make penicillin, but penicillin is _way_ cheaper, simply because the patent has expired. Another example for you US residents out there is the sudden explosion of antacid preparations out there. Remember a few years ago when we started seeing Tagamet, Pepcid, Axis, etx. all show up? It's because the patent on the orriginal H2-Blocker drug expired and all the other drug companies were able to get in on the act. Similarly, WotC has the next seven or so years to market the heck out of the CCG, after which time their patent will expire and anyone can use the idea free of charge. Again, I'd be warry of taking this as gospel, it's just my $0.02. -Jason Werner Biohazard Games ------------------------------------------------ I lacked the courage to investigate the weaknesses of the wicked, because I discovered they are the same as the weaknesses of the saintly. - Wm. of Baskerville -------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jim Heivilin [ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu] Sent: Friday, 20 March, 1998 10:08 To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Mechs vs. Tanks On Thursday, 19 March, 1998 17:49 PM, Ghost [SMTP:awillia8@wvu.edu] wrote: > JASON KUCHERAWY wrote: > I've been wrong about many things on this list lately, but I *>KNOW<* > the LAMs were transformable. That was the best time to hit them. > As for an earler comment on the advantages of mecha over tanks: sheer > maneuverability is the answer. Tanks don't work nearly as well on steep > slopes, forests, heavy urban areas, etc. > This is truth. That's the basis for the 1980's concept of combined arms. Doctrine changed then but the concept has been used since at least Napoleon's time (cavalry, infantry & artillery). Restricted terrain is impassible by armored forces (both tanks units and armored infantry, although they CAN get out of the PCs, they don't like to!). That's why you always bring infantry with you. I see the Mechs as stemming from the development of improved 'accessories' for the infantry. A helmet with comm gear. A visor with vision enhancing devices. Eventual development of 'armor' for the infantryman. Waldos and servo-mechanics to make them faster, stronger, better (we can rebuild him). Armoring the servos. Over time it evolves into the powered armor we are all familiar with. Then it keeps getting larger and stronger and faster until, voila, we have Mechs. Just MHO. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ghost [awillia8@wvu.edu] Sent: Friday, 20 March, 1998 5:17 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Copyright (OT) Cedric M. BoB PONCHY wrote: > I heard that in the states, White Wolf copyrighted the concept of CCG (I can't > think of a better wording), as every company making a new CCG must pay them > royalties. Is it true or BS ? I also heard that the famous "tap" action was > copyrighted too. > > I have an example: LZW compression *algorithm* is copyrighted in the USA, as is > the GIF file format, and what is a file format beyond a way to organize datas ? > Isn't a file format something close to a concept. > > Can you copyright mathematic formulas in the states ? In France, you can't. But > if it's possible in the States, would the BP game mechanics fall in this area, > as action resolution is merely a function taking input parameters and outputing > values ? > > -- > Those who forget the past are condemned to fulfill it. > --George Santayana, Life of Reason > Those who do not archive the past are condemned to retype it! > --Garfinkel and Spafford, Practical UNIX Security (first edition) > -- > Cidric PONCHY, The BoB Master ///\Oo/\\\ ponchy@club-internet.fr I would guess it would be WotC, not White Wolf, but I think you're partly right. They copyrighted their type of system and other derivatives, but not the CCG itself. Illuminati and other card-based games(I don't remember if Illuminati was collectable) don't need to pay, nor would any game with a totally different system. I don't think it is RIGHT, but I think they copyrighted the "tap." I don't know, though. I don't keep up with CCGs, and I'm not into the technicalities of law. You can copyright an algorithm, as it is a unique item. If I made an algorithm to compress files at a 1-100000 ratio, I would naturally wish to keep that limited to those people I wanted to have it. But If I used, say, fractal compression to build that algorithm, I could NOT stop anyone from developing their own algorithm based off of fractal compression. This is the same logic that allows Windows 95 to LOOK like MacOS, but forces Microsoft to code things differently(and more inefficiently, if you ask me). They had a big debate about Microsoft using Apple code for the AVI format a while back, if anyone remembers. You can also copyright a system. TSR pulled Mayfair's Role-Aids supplements becuase they used a system so similar to D&D that TSR could claim infringement. If I wanted a game that used the Blue Planet system, I would need to pay Biohazard royalties. I don't know who decides how much you need to change a system to make it different, though. Rifts seems awful similar to and advanced version of D&D, to me. I don't know about formulas. I seem to remember some type of credit system, but not anything to prevent anyone from using it(i.e. a copyright), but I can't remember the details. A formula only a few people could use wouldn't make sense, though, and would be impossible to protect, anyway. -Ghost *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Hindmarch [hindmarc@stu.beloit.edu] Sent: Friday, 20 March, 1998 15:39 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Copyright (OT) > I heard that in the states, White Wolf copyrighted the concept of CCG (I can't > think of a better wording), as every company making a new CCG must pay them > royalties. Is it true or BS ? I also heard that the famous "tap" action was > copyrighted too. Wizards of the Coast patented the "trading card style of play", I believe the expression goes. They likewise, I thought, trademarked "CCG", so that no one else can use that. Icky. > I have an example: LZW compression *algorithm* is copyrighted in the USA, as is > the GIF file format, and what is a file format beyond a way to organize datas ? > Isn't a file format something close to a concept. > > Can you copyright mathematic formulas in the states ? In France, you can't. But > if it's possible in the States, would the BP game mechanics fall in this area, > as action resolution is merely a function taking input parameters and outputing > values ? I'm not sure about mathematical formulas, I'll leave it to somebody who knows more, but I do know that White Wolf trademarked their game engine, so it has an actual title, for some protection. Likewise, since the rules are printed (and, I might add, over and over again) it would be considered plagarism to copy them, rather, I think, than infringement. Same legal penalties, I believe. If a game mechanic really follows a mathematical formula, I suspect it could be copywritten, save for the fact that most game systems are plays or rehashes of very old and very simple mathematical equations. I.e. their patent would have run out by now. :) In the case of GIF or algorithms, they can be copywritten and patented because they can be invented. For example, the notion of organizing files a certain way is an idea. The act of actually sitting down to do it (and naming it GIF or LZW) makes it a product and, therefore, patentable and copyrightable. Now, you could make an almost identical form of organization, even make it compatible, I suspect, and name if "FIG" and you should be in the clear. In the case of music, for example, the rule is something like "five consecutive notes" must be separate from another source to avoid infrngement. Arrangements, measures, and chords all have a factor, too. But, essentially, there are fairly set precedents, but my guess is they're being redefined all the time. wil *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Hindmarch [hindmarc@stu.beloit.edu] Sent: Friday, 20 March, 1998 15:42 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mechs vs. Tanks > I see the Mechs as stemming from the development of improved 'accessories' > for the infantry. A helmet with comm gear. A visor with vision enhancing > devices. Eventual development of 'armor' for the infantryman. Waldos and > servo-mechanics to make them faster, stronger, better (we can rebuild him). > Armoring the servos. Over time it evolves into the powered armor we are > all familiar with. Then it keeps getting larger and stronger and faster > until, voila, we have Mechs. Just MHO. Which makes sense. The other thing I keep telling myself in Battletech, is that when the Star League had all the 'mechs and such, they *really* worked well. Now they're just remnants. And, I guess, in a multi-environmental role (and in a society that still has strong ties to chivalry and feudalism), they make a certain amount of sense. But, like was said before, really they're just pretty. Sort of a romantic's war machine (a la flying fortresses, Y-wings, and the like) wil *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jim Heivilin [ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu] Sent: Friday, 20 March, 1998 16:10 To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Mechs vs. Tanks On Friday, 20 March, 1998 15:42 PM, William Hindmarch [SMTP:hindmarc@stu.beloit.edu] wrote: > Which makes sense. The other thing I keep telling myself in > Battletech, is that when the Star League had all the 'mechs and such, they > *really* worked well. Now they're just remnants. And, I guess, in a > And since the maintenance mechanism (or infrastructure) no longer exists, when parts wear out they have difficulty replacing them and must resort to 'cannibalism' of parts. Similar to what happened to the natives when the resupply ship never arrived. As their technology wore out they had to find substitutes. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.