From: JASON KUCHERAWY [yu143298@yorku.ca] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 9:06 To: Blue Planet List Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Troll Magazine I flipped through my issue of Troll yesterday and found more info on their address. The address I posted earlier was just their mailing address for letter submissions. Troll Magazine is published by Eclipse Inc. Actual address: Troll Magazine 1321 Laurel Streeet Kearney, Mo 64060, USA Tel: (816) 628-4999 fax: (816) 628 4999 Distribution: Chessex Central 3119 Phoenixville Pike Suite #3 Malvern, PA 19355, USA Tel: (610) 695-0523 Subscription: $30 US for 12 issues sent to a US address $49 US for 12 issues sent to a foreign address Make cheque or money order out to Eclipse Studios Inc. and include with subscription request. Send subscriptions to: Eclipse Studios Inc P.O. Box 1012 Kearney Mo, 64060 USA Email adress: eclipse@uit.net Hope this is enough info! ### Jason Kucherawy ### ### Come climb my Treehouse at: ### http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/8557/index.html ### ### "Nature abhors a hero." ### -Solomon Short (from the novel"A Matter For Men" by David Gerold) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: JASON KUCHERAWY [yu143298@yorku.ca] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 8:53 To: Blue Planet List Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) This question popped up on GURPSnet, and I thought it pertained directly to the Blue Planet people here. So.... can anyone here answer? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 21:38:02 -0000 From: tbone To: "'GURPSnet-L@io.com'" Subject: RE: Can Dolphins drown ? Rose, Paul D said: >Simple question ,especially if there are any marine bio's on the list :- >Heres the plot ? > >Character turn's into dolphin ....jumps into river >gets hit on head and falls unconscious ....does it die y/n > >If yes then why ? >If no then why not? If it sinks, or if it floats with its blowhole below the water surface, then it drowns. It needs air just like a human. I don't know whether it's likely that a dolphin would float unconscious, dorsal-side-up, with its blowhole safely above the waterline, but not knowing, I suppose you could roll some dice and make up a result . . . >Ps. Would a dolphin have any problem in fresh water as apposed to sea >water (or does the shapeshift cater for that and turn the pc into a >river dolphin?) Good question. Any marine bios out there who can tell us what's the deal with fresh vs salt water? What aquatic creatures are and aren't vulnerable to this distinction, and for those that are, what are the dangers? Slow death? Quick death? What? >Paul Rose T. Bone tbone@io.com www.io.com/~tbone/gurps/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jim Heivilin [ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 10:04 To: 'blue_planet@MPGN.COM' Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - RE: Can Dolphins drown ? On Monday, 30 March, 1998 8:53 AM, JASON KUCHERAWY [SMTP:yu143298@yorku.ca] wrote: > This question popped up on GURPSnet, and I thought it pertained directly > to the Blue Planet people here. So.... can anyone here answer? > Since I'm doing research right now for the Cetacean book I might be able to answer a few of these. > >Character turn's into dolphin ....jumps into river > >gets hit on head and falls unconscious ....does it die y/n > > > >If yes then why ? > >If no then why not? > > If it sinks, or if it floats with its blowhole below the water surface, > then it drowns. It needs air just like a human. > Yes, it needs air to breath just like a human. It is interesting to note that our lungs have an efficiency (extracting air to put into the bloodstream) of something around 20%. Most cetaceans have an efficiency of above 80%. Many of them will breath on the surface for a period of time (10, 15 or 20 minutes depending on species) and then dive and stay down for what would be incredible amounts of time for a human. A sperm whale can dive to 10,000 feet and hold it's breath for over an hour. > I don't know whether it's likely that a dolphin would float unconscious, > dorsal-side-up, with its blowhole safely above the waterline, but not > knowing, I suppose you could roll some dice and make up a result . . . > Cetaceans have much more control over their breathing that we do. I haven't seen anything on whether it would be an autonomic reflex if the creature were unconscious but I'd image it would be. > >Ps. Would a dolphin have any problem in fresh water as apposed to sea > >water (or does the shapeshift cater for that and turn the pc into a > >river dolphin?) > There are species of both dolphins and whales that can transit between salt and fresh water. > Good question. Any marine bios out there who can tell us what's the deal > with fresh vs. salt water? What aquatic creatures are and aren't > vulnerable to this distinction, and for those that are, what are the > dangers? Slow death? Quick death? What? > Don't know the answer to this one but I'm sure Jeff or Greg do. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Alexandre "Tarrask" Filho [fatima@openline.com.br] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 12:18 To: blue_planet@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) >>Ps. Would a dolphin have any problem in fresh water as apposed to sea >>water (or does the shapeshift cater for that and turn the pc into a >>river dolphin?) > >Good question. Any marine bios out there who can tell us what's the deal >with fresh vs salt water? What aquatic creatures are and aren't >vulnerable to this distinction, and for those that are, what are the >dangers? Slow death? Quick death? What? Well, the dolphin's skin is adapted for salty water, and if the animal goes to a fresh water place (like river or lake), his skin will dehidratate by losing water, and the effects should be described by the game master..... *************************** *Alexandre Freire Filho * *Nick: Tarrask * *fatima@openline.com.br * *ICQ: 4477330 * *Peter Swanson na Kindred * *************************** "Se você conhece o inimigo e conhece a si mesmo, não precisa temer o resultado de cem batalhas; Se você se conhece, mas não conhece o inimigo, para cada vitória ganha sofrerá também uma derrota; Se você nem conhece o inimigo nem a si mesmo, perderá todas as batalhas." Sun Tzu, A arte da guerra *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 12:33 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) >Rose, Paul D said: [snip] >>Ps. Would a dolphin have any problem in fresh water as apposed to sea >>water (or does the shapeshift cater for that and turn the pc into a >>river dolphin?) Here in Houston, we had a bottlenose dolphin swim up the Ship Channel and into a bayou a couple weeks ago. He showed off for the spectators a little while, then swam back out. Based on this and other anecdotal accounts I've read, I'm pretty sure dolphins can handle fresh water at least temporarily. I believe I've also read about killer whales swimming up-river a ways in Alaska looking for more salmon. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a) their skin is best-suited to the chemical composition of the oceans, and b) most species have trouble satisfying their dietary requirements in a river. In either case, though, any health hazards are probably not short-term ones. In any case, cetaceans most certainly can drown. And I'm pretty certain there is no autonomic reflex that is going to keep an unconscious cetacean's blowhole above water. IIRC, that's the main reason dolphins only sleep with one side of their brains at a time. I've read accounts of sick dolphins being supported at the surface by friends and family precisely because they would drown, otherwise. Now, if the diving reflex is triggered and the cetacean's lungs have collapsed, they *might* not fill with water--the cetacean may just suffocate when its air-supply runs out. OTOH, it may be that the lungs will reflexively attempt to re-inflate and draw-in air when this happens, in which case the cetacean would just drown. Hope this helps. Greg Benage Biohazard Games www.biohazardgames.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: DL [dreamlord@cryogen.com] Sent: Sunday, 30 March, 1997 12:58 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) Alexandre "Tarrask" Filho wrote: > >>Ps. Would a dolphin have any problem in fresh water as apposed to sea > >>water (or does the shapeshift cater for that and turn the pc into a > >>river dolphin?) > > > >Good question. Any marine bios out there who can tell us what's the deal > >with fresh vs salt water? What aquatic creatures are and aren't > >vulnerable to this distinction, and for those that are, what are the > >dangers? Slow death? Quick death? What? > > Well, the dolphin's skin is adapted for salty water, and if the > animal goes to a fresh water place (like river or lake), his skin will > dehidratate by losing water, and the effects should be described by the game > master..... Actually, the first problem it will notice, it's his increased weight, and it will sink, and drown. just that. ::):) And, it could be a problem even in the sea, if it find a portion of fresh water. Subs can suffer with the same problem. [], Dream Lord Hiperbórea - http://www.geocities.com/area51/vault/3057 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: JASON KUCHERAWY [yu143298@yorku.ca] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 16:09 To: Blue Planet List Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) A response from GURPSnet... (I hope this cross-posting/sharing I am doing isn't bothering anyone. I have noticed on a few occasions that topics are covered in either list which would interest the other. GURPSnet has many military and "hard science" "experts", and could prove to be a valuable resource for some BP players. Likewise, the knowledge held by the BP list collective might prove useful to GURPSnet in the areas of marine biology, etc.) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:27:47 -0800 (PST) From: Dennis C Hwang To: tbone Cc: "'GURPSnet-L@io.com'" Subject: RE: Can Dolphins drown ? On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, tbone wrote: > Rose, Paul D said: > > >Simple question ,especially if there are any marine bio's on the list :- > >Heres the plot ? > > > >Character turn's into dolphin ....jumps into river > >gets hit on head and falls unconscious ....does it die y/n > > > >If yes then why ? > >If no then why not? > > If it sinks, or if it floats with its blowhole below the water surface, > then it drowns. It needs air just like a human. > > I don't know whether it's likely that a dolphin would float unconscious, > dorsal-side-up, with its blowhole safely above the waterline, but not > knowing, I suppose you could roll some dice and make up a result . . . > > >Ps. Would a dolphin have any problem in fresh water as apposed to sea > >water (or does the shapeshift cater for that and turn the pc into a > >river dolphin?) > > Good question. Any marine bios out there who can tell us what's the deal > with fresh vs salt water? What aquatic creatures are and aren't > vulnerable to this distinction, and for those that are, what are the > dangers? Slow death? Quick death? What? Well, I'm not a marine biologist, but I'll see what I can do from my remote background in comparative biology as an undergrad... :) I don't think a cetacean would suffer any immediate ill effects from a transition from salt to fresh water. Bottlenose dolphins (Tursiops truncatus) have been known to travel upriver, sometimes with young calves, in order to temporarily escape the rigors of marine life. I don't think they could keep this up indefinitely, though, since they're adapted to living in a high-salinity environment and thus probably place a fair physiologic strain on the salt/water excretion/resorption capacity of their kidneys. As far as other aquatic creatures, most teleosts (bony fish) can survive only in one or the other, due to their specialized excretion methods. Marine fish have to "drink" almost constantly, due to their hyperosmolar surroundings, and excrete the salt. Freshwater fish, on the other hand, live in a hypoosmolar environment, and thus are usually excreting water. Most crustaceans, molluscs, echinoderms, and other invertebrates are also restricted in this fashion. (I never say "all" because you never know when someone has found a species that defies expectations. :) Sharks are more interesting. Their internal osmotic regulation involves maintaining a certain concentration of urea in their blood which allows them to adjust to the osmolarity of their surroundings; thus, you have the instances in which bull sharks (Carcharhinus leucas) can travel upriver and have established a rather infamous presence in Lake Nicaragua, as well as in the Zambezi River and the Ganges. It used to be speculated that these were exclusively freshwater populations, possibly representing separate species, but studies showed that the sharks were simply migrating up and down the rivers. It's been theorized that sharks enter brackish or fresh water in order to rid themselves of marine parasites. Amphibians are exclusively freshwater (or terrestrial). --Dennis ************************************************************* * dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! * ************************************************************* * So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know * * DOS. * * * * --Izzy to Gabriel * * THE PROPHECY II * ************************************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jason A Werner [c577200@showme.missouri.edu] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 16:52 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) DL wrote: > > >>Ps. Would a dolphin have any problem in fresh water as apposed to sea > > >>water (or does the shapeshift cater for that and turn the pc into a > > >>river dolphin?) I would expect that there would be a period of time in which the dolphin wouldn't experience much of a problem. Human beings aren't adapted to having a hypertonic solution on the outside of their skins, but people swim in the ocean for long periods of time without problem. > > >Good question. Any marine bios out there who can tell us what's the deal > > >with fresh vs salt water? What aquatic creatures are and aren't > > >vulnerable to this distinction, and for those that are, what are the > > >dangers? Slow death? Quick death? What? Salmon, if I remember correctly, go through pretty profound changes early in life when they leave the freshwater streams where they were born and move into the ocean. I _think_ the fact that they don't reverse-adapt as well when they go back upstream to mate contributes to their ultimate death. > > Well, the dolphin's skin is adapted for salty water, and if the > > animal goes to a fresh water place (like river or lake), his skin will > > dehidratate by losing water, and the effects should be described by the game > > master..... I don't know the exact mechanics of dolphin skin, and this might be a place where Jeff would like to chime in. However, it would seem to me that if the dolphin is normally in salt water, its skin would be better adapted to _retaining_ water, since the ocean is very likely going to be more salty than the animal's own blood, and water _loss_ would be the problem. Putting the dolphin in pure water would substantially decrease this osmotic gradient. The problem then might be that it no longer loses water, and you'd have to worry about volume overload. > Actually, the first problem it will notice, it's his increased weight, and it > will sink, and drow. just that. ::):) It's true, the dolphin will weigh more in fresh water. However, we're talking about animals that (1) can raise themselves 75% or more out of the water just by the strength of their tails and (2) are capable of swimming at significant speeds for long periods of time. I would think that a simple change in salinity wouldn't have that great an effect such that the animal can no longer keep itself afloat. > Subs can suffer with the same problem. Do they really? I remember seeing that on one of the few episodes of SeaQuest that I ever saw. I thought it was just a plot device. Just my 0.02CS worth. -Jason Werner Biohazard Games ------------------------------------------------ I lacked the courage to investigate the weaknesses of the wicked, because I discovered they are the same as the weaknesses of the saintly. - Wm. of Baskerville -------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD [BIOHZD@aol.com] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 18:43 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) Hey all, Cool discussion on marine biology - in case you hadn't guessed, we're kind of partial to that stuff around here ; ). Some comments - 1. The posters are correct, dolphins can tolerate freshwater for extended periods of time, and are known to do so frequenly in the wild. And, as was mentioned there are at least four separate species of freshwater dolphins in various rivers around the world. Unfortunately, I know nothing about the consequences of long term exposure of marine species to freshwater. 2. I'll second the comment about the freshwater tolerance of cartilagenous fish. There are several speices of freshwater sharks and rays around the world, and many species are routinely found invading rivers. In fact, a couple years ago a live bull shark was caught in the Mississippi River near *Memphis* of all places, and I have even heard reports of sharks as far up the Mississippi drainage as the Ohio River. Cool huh? - sharks here in the Heartland ; ). 3. Due to anatomy, an unconsious dolphin will likely roll on it's side, especially if the air is forced from its lungs by water pressure. And Greg is correct, there have been documented cases about cetaceans holding pod mates at the surface. In fact, newborns often have to be pushed to the surface to take their first breaths, and then held there until they get their "bearings." 4. I know this is picking-nits, but as a teacher its an occupational hazard, so please forgive ; ). A dolphin entering fresh water will not actaully weigh more - instead it's *relative* density increases, as fresh water is less dense than salt water. (Hey, there's a great quiz question in there somewhere - thanks ; ) Later all, Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: SemiColon [SemiColon@aol.com] Sent: Monday, 30 March, 1998 23:04 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Troll Magazine Cat - I'm hurt that you would look to talk with Troll and not SHADIS sniff, sniff -Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.