From: Auberon [fskln1@aurora.alaska.edu] Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 1998 4:42 To: Blue Planet List Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - [Blue Planet] Advertising Speaking of which, I just got the latest Shadis in the mail, and I love the ad! Particularly the placement; open the cover and BOOM! Right acrost from the TSR ad and better looking. <:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::> Auberon "Ultimately most problems can be solved by applying a Large Brick to the Correct Skull. Difficulties arise when you don't have a brick or can't find the the right skull. The Devil is always in the details." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD [BIOHZD@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 1998 1:27 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Troll vs Shadis Hey Jim, Cat may want to talk to Troll, but who's been getting *all* our advertising bucks? ; ). Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Alexandre "Tarrask" Filho [fatima@openline.com.br] Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 1998 10:38 To: blue_planet@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Dolphin relatives (was: RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) Aloha Well, after all the arguments, I'd like to add another information: there is an animal that is very similar to dolphin, here in the Amazon river, called boto, that is fresh water-based. There are two different species, and the only principal difference is their color, because one is white and the other, pink. Ill try to search for the species name, and if find, I'll post it. *************************** *Alexandre Freire Filho * *Nick: Tarrask * *fatima@openline.com.br * *ICQ: 4477330 * *Peter Swanson na Kindred * *************************** "Se você conhece o inimigo e conhece a si mesmo, não precisa temer o resultado de cem batalhas; Se você se conhece, mas não conhece o inimigo, para cada vitória ganha sofrerá também uma derrota; Se você nem conhece o inimigo nem a si mesmo, perderá todas as batalhas." Sun Tzu, A arte da guerra *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: JASON KUCHERAWY [yu143298@yorku.ca] Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 1998 11:09 To: Blue Planet List Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Marine life in sea water (Was: Can dolphins drown?) Another post from GURPSnet.... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 01:18:40 -0000 From: tbone To: gnet Subject: RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (long reply) Christopher M. Dicely said: >Well, I'm not a marine biologist, but specifically relevant to the >drowning question is the fact that you (dolphin, fish, or human) will >have less bouyancy in fresh water than in salt water. Yes, but it's not a big deal. Seawater is only 2.4% heavier than fresh water. Pierce Nichols said: > Many pelagic dolphins are known to enter rivers, and even swim >well inland (to fresh, as opposed to brackish water). IIRC, most fish can >survive the wrong type of water, but they will die of electrolyte >imbalance if they aren't built to switch. Yes; I'm wondering if anyone has any real-life examples of time before dysfunction and death for some given species. Dennis Hwang says: >As far as other aquatic creatures, most teleosts (bony fish) can survive >only in one or the other, due to their specialized excretion methods. Right. >Marine fish have to "drink" almost constantly, due to their hyperosmolar >surroundings, and excrete the salt. Freshwater fish, on the other hand, >live in a hypoosmolar environment, and thus are usually excreting water. >Most crustaceans, molluscs, echinoderms, and other invertebrates are also >restricted in this fashion. (I never say "all" because you never know >when someone has found a species that defies expectations. :) Right. >Sharks are more interesting. Their internal osmotic regulation involves >maintaining a certain concentration of urea in their blood which allows >them to adjust to the osmolarity of their surroundings; thus, you have the >instances in which bull sharks (Carcharhinus leucas) can travel upriver >and have established a rather infamous presence in Lake Nicaragua, as well >as in the Zambezi River and the Ganges. It used to be speculated that >these were exclusively freshwater populations, possibly representing >separate species, but studies showed that the sharks were simply migrating >up and down the rivers. It's been theorized that sharks enter brackish or >fresh water in order to rid themselves of marine parasites. Interesting. Perhaps sharks are truly at home in either. >Amphibians are exclusively freshwater (or terrestrial). Frogs etc. seem particularly susceptible to toxins in water, and with those porous skins I'd guess they'd be particularly vulnerable to salt water. Thomas Barnes says: > > I can't imagine a creature evolved for life in water that would >sink or be unable to breath in an emergency. I can. Of course nature will have provided for letting them sleep without drowning, but as for being knocked unconscious by a head blow, I wouldn't assume safe breathing at all. Nature lets monkeys sleep in trees, but knock one out, and I bet it falls. (snipitty snip) >eat salty foods. Your body is asking for more fresh water to cope with the >dehydrating effects that the salt has on your cells.) . . . my question is, what creatures are affected, and how bad are the effects? > I would imagine the rate at which you die depends on your size and >whether or not you use gills to breathe. Fish would be much more >vulnerable than, say, seals and dolphins. Also, creatures that are mostly >water (like jellyfish or sponges) would be at even more risk than >creatures which have more effective skins (like fish). Yes, agreed; I'd assume very slow damage, if any, to mammals. Fish have good solid skins too, but there are those gills, as you say . . . Invertebrates and amphibians are likely to have skins sensitive to salinity, in my layman's opinion. Think slugs & salt, for an extreme example! But back to the question, I was wondering whether anyone had hard knowledge of such-and-such species dying X number of hours on average after a change from fresh to salt water or vice-versa. Not that I expect list members to happen to know this or to go look it up, but if anyone does have good hard numbers on any species' mortality under those circumstances, it'd be interesting for building a realistic disad. By way of Jason Kucherawy: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:03:59 -0600 >From: Jim Heivilin >Yes, it needs air to breath just like a human. It is interesting to note >that our lungs have an efficiency (extracting air to put into the >bloodstream) of something around 20%. Most cetaceans have an efficiency of >above 80%. Many of them will breath on the surface for a period of time >(10, 15 or 20 minutes depending on species) and then dive and stay down for >what would be incredible amounts of time for a human. A sperm whale can >dive to 10,000 feet and hold it's breath for over an hour. Yes, quite impressive. For that, GURPS does have ads: Breath Holding, Pressure Support etc. >Cetaceans have much more control over their breathing that we do. I >haven't seen anything on whether it would be an autonomic reflex if the >creature were unconscious but I'd image it would be. Maybe, but others indicate maybe not . . . >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:32:34 -0600 >From: Greg Benage >In any case, cetaceans most certainly can drown. And I'm pretty certain >there is no autonomic reflex that is going to keep an unconscious cetacean's >blowhole above water. IIRC, that's the main reason dolphins only sleep with >one side of their brains at a time. I've read accounts of sick dolphins >being supported at the surface by friends and family precisely because they >would drown, otherwise. Now, if the diving reflex is triggered and the >cetacean's lungs have collapsed, they *might* not fill with water--the >cetacean may just suffocate when its air-supply runs out. OTOH, it may be >that the lungs will reflexively attempt to re-inflate and draw-in air when >this happens, in which case the cetacean would just drown. > >Hope this helps. It does. >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:42:45 EST >From: BIOHZD >Hey all, > >Cool discussion on marine biology - in case you hadn't guessed, we're kind of >partial to that stuff around here ; ). Cool, but why? What's Biohazard Games, and why all the marine bio knowledge? >Some comments - > >1. The posters are correct, dolphins can tolerate freshwater for extended >periods of time, and are known to do so frequenly in the wild. And, as was >mentioned there are at least four separate species of freshwater dolphins in >various rivers around the world. Unfortunately, I know nothing about the >consequences of long term exposure of marine species to freshwater. > >2. I'll second the comment about the freshwater tolerance of cartilagenous >fish. There are several speices of freshwater sharks and rays around the >world, and many species are routinely found invading rivers. In fact, a >couple >years ago a live bull shark was caught in the Mississippi River near >*Memphis* >of all places, and I have even heard reports of sharks as far up the >Mississippi drainage as the Ohio River. Cool huh? - sharks here in the >Heartland ; ). Another vote for sharks and their ilk as more-or-less immune . . . >3. Due to anatomy, an unconsious dolphin will likely roll on it's side, >especially if the air is forced from its lungs by water pressure. And Greg is >correct, there have been documented cases about cetaceans holding pod >mates at >the surface. In fact, newborns often have to be pushed to the surface to take >their first breaths, and then held there until they get their "bearings." I've heard these stories of dolphins holding up sick or injured pod-mates, presumably to keep their blowholes above water. >4. I know this is picking-nits, but as a teacher its an occupational hazard, >so please forgive ; ). A dolphin entering fresh water will not actaully weigh >more - instead it's *relative* density increases, as fresh water is less >dense >than salt water. (Hey, there's a great quiz question in there somewhere - >thanks ; ) Thanks. Oddly enough, just days before this question came up on the list I was considering what the disad value would be for an aquatic creature restricted to only fresh or salt water would be; hence my interest. The answer would of course be some base disad value, modified by the length of time between damage taken due to the environment. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much data on what these lengths of time are for some typical creatures, other than (possibly) no disad at all for sharks, and an ability to survice for a long period of time (weeks?) for cetaceans. I'll be keeping an eye open for more data -- T. Bone tbone@io.com www.io.com/~tbone/gurps/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Hindmarch [hindmarc@stu.beloit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 1998 14:55 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Mechs vs. Tanks > Interesting. I originally come from Rockford! Along the same lines, I have a friend heading out to your neck of the woods this summer for an internship involving bugs. > > Starship Troopers, even, on Sunday). If you'd like me to meet you Friday > > > Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh! Well, (hopefully not starting this thread again) the > special effects were good. Likewise, without starting the thread again (though I hadn't seen it when it was started before) it's a fun movie. It's a classic campy B-movie with splendid special effects. After three straight days of gaming, it's a really good sort of movie to see (since by Sunday most of the gaming has begun to resemble Starship Troopers anyway.) :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Hindmarch [hindmarc@stu.beloit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 1998 15:10 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Troll vs Shadis This reminds me: Does anyone know where to get Shadis in the Chicagoland area? Or, can anyone get me the subscription address. I have seen, I think, two issues in my life. For some reason no one around here carries it. wil *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD [BIOHZD@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 1998 21:03 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Dolphin relatives (was: RE: Can Dolphins drown ? (fwd) Hello Alexandre, The boto actually *is* a species of dolphin. They are increasingly rare as they are hunted for both food and as sources of materials for various sorts of local shaman "magic". Their eyes are very small and almost useless as they are of little value in the typically muddy water. They depend primarily on echolocation for navigation and finding food. There are several conservation groups working to educate locals in an effort to save the species, and the animals have been featured in several nature documentaries as a result. The Ganges River, and a major river in China (I forget which one) have indigenous freshwater dolphin species as well. Later, Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: SemiColon [SemiColon@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, 31 March, 1998 21:53 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - [Blue Planet] Advertising thank jim pinto of SHADIS for the incredible Blue Planet Ad placement... [hint, hint] *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.