From: Max Kalus [max.kalus@student.uni-augsburg.de] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 6:33 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news > Rich people get their genetic code "cleaned up" -- whatever happens to be > in fashion at the time. If at some later date, humanity is required to > evolve again, the only ones capable of it would be the previously lower > classes, who've still got their junk DNA, recesive traits, and random > mutations. The offspring of those "clean" individuals would be unable to > change, and would simply die if it was required. By the way, maybe it is a little bit off topic: I just got GURPS Bio-Tech, and was quite pleased with it. It covers a lot of these DNA-topics, including the reduction of the gene-pool by "cleaning-up" codes, or the problems of variant humans with their gene-pool (which could be quite interesting for Posseidon, too, as this is a severe weakness of mods). Maybe you should take a look at it... Max Kalus. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: William Hindmarch [hindmarc@stu.beloit.edu] Sent: Wednesday, 08 April, 1998 23:56 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mad Rantings > Because its easier to enforce a ban on guns, research, etc than it is > to make people behave well towards each other. This is not a cure, > just a band-aid for an ill society. It's not all bad, it's just that > bad stuff gets better press. As the son of an NRA member, I was raised on this philosophy. To an extent. I was also raised to believe that banning guns is a mistake. Education is a safer (more expensive) bet (that generally comes to late). > PS- I think it was much better when the world was mostly empty. > People needed each other to survive, so they got along much better. I might tend to agree, to a point. In previous ages, although cities and settlements were extremely crowded, one tended to count on those directly around them to survive. In modern cities, however, where a dozen different "tribes" of people can occupy the same city block and never really *meet* each other, individuals are consistently finding their space occupied by people that they not only feel they don't need, but that they do not know. It's an interesting social situation that, while our communication technology allows us to have friends in countries thousands of miles away which we've never been to, we are often surrounded by strangers we hardly even trust not to kill us for their own benefit. wil "it's always something" hindmarch *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Max Kalus [max.kalus@student.uni-augsburg.de] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 6:33 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news R. Stefko wrote: > Saudi Arabia is a relatively prosperous country, and woman are not much > freer there than in the rest of the Islamic world. Well, quite a statement... "Islamic world" sounds like a monolithic block, while there are Islamic countries, where women were minies, and there are countries, in which women are (well, have been) prime ministers (which is much more than most western governments have achieved). Well, that was off-topic, but I felt it was necessery... All in all, arab countries are suppressive to women... I didn't doubt that (I have been in the middle east, and have seen it!) Max Kalus. > And > the prosperity issue doesn't apply to nations where prosperity (as defined > by Western civilization) simply cannot be achieved, either due to the local > geography or the local sociopolitical system. Don't forget the international system, neighbors, etc.Geography is not really a big issue. Prosperous nations exist in freezing areas (like Finnland or Norway) in mountainous regions (like Switzerland) or tjust flat areas (like the Netherlands). Today. factors of prosperity are much more defined by technology, education, infrastructure, etc. > If I'm not mistaken, Europe lost more than a third of its population during > the Middle Ages (especially during the plague years) and still managed to > recoup the losses by the time the Rennaissance rolled around. Yes, that is very true. There were other such mass deaths, like the 30-years war (1618-1648), some plague in the 9th century, etc.There are even some sociologist, which claim, that catastrophes like that are essential for development. It is some kind of "genetic cleaning", if I may use this term here, as well as giving society a chance to start again (class restrictions are often softened in those periods), as well as labour shortage gives women more rights to decide for themselves (14th and 15th century Europe was quite liberal for women, but then the Reformation and economic problems came...). Max Kalus. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Max Kalus [max.kalus@student.uni-augsburg.de] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 6:31 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news William Hindmarch wrote: > Based on current statistical climbs, the human race will outgrow the > amount of food it can produce within 25 years. Then people will begin to > starve to death not because we don't feed them, but because we can't. > We already have too many people; more than we know what to do with. Interestingly, the same was said by people in the 1960ies. I just had a small project, dealing with science fiction short stories in different decades of the 20th century. Well, the point is, that statistics can propose possible developments, but they are often proved wrong by time. One short story from the 60ies, I worked on, figured, that by 2025 there would be about 20 billion people living on earth, which was calculated with the 1960 growth figure of 3% yearly. But, the growth rate actually declined rapidly over the next decades, today it is estimated (again, statistics...) to be 1.4%. The UN estimates 2025 population to be between 8 and 9 billion people.Not that this wil be nice. Thirty years from now, there will be over 50% more people on this planet... Think about that! I did not want to dissipate any worries about world population, as you hopefully can see! Feeding these people will be a major problem, but in my opinion, humanity has this remarkable ability to come up with strange new ideas at the last second, before it is too late, and save itself. I guess thats a strange trait to have, but thinking about the fact than none of us thinks too reasonably, I figure it is understandable... Max Kalus *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Max Kalus [max.kalus@student.uni-augsburg.de] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 6:33 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Mad Rantings William Hindmarch wrote: > > Because its easier to enforce a ban on guns, research, etc than it is > > to make people behave well towards each other. This is not a cure, > > just a band-aid for an ill society. It's not all bad, it's just that > > bad stuff gets better press. > > As the son of an NRA member, I was raised on this philosophy. To an > extent. I was also raised to believe that banning guns is a mistake. > Education is a safer (more expensive) bet (that generally comes to late). That makes me think of saying, which Socrates said, I believe: "When people are sick, many doctors are needed. When a state/society is sick, many lawyers are needed." Maybe you can apply for guns, or other things... Max Kalus. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [fskln1@aurora.alaska.edu] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 7:34 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Max Kalus wrote: > By the way, maybe it is a little bit off topic: Not especially. > I just got GURPS Bio-Tech, and was quite pleased with it. It covers a > lot of these DNA-topics, including the reduction of the gene-pool by > "cleaning-up" codes, or the problems of variant humans with their gene-pool > (which could be quite interesting for Posseidon, too, as this is a severe weakness of > mods). Maybe you should take a look at it... Own it, actually, but I've felt strongly about this for a while now. I'd forgotten about those bits in Biotech. Incidentally, Biotech makes a great Blue Planet sourcebook for designing potential biomods, at least until an official one comes out... <:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::> Auberon "Ultimately most problems can be solved by applying a Large Brick to the Correct Skull. Difficulties arise when you don't have a brick or can't find the the right skull. The Devil is always in the details." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: JASON KUCHERAWY [yu143298@yorku.ca] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 8:20 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Max Kalus wrote: > By the way, maybe it is a little bit off topic: > > I just got GURPS Bio-Tech, and was quite pleased with it. It covers a > lot of these DNA-topics, including the reduction of the gene-pool by > "cleaning-up" codes, or the problems of variant humans with their gene-pool > (which could be quite interesting for Posseidon, too, as this is a severe weakness > of mods). Maybe you should take a look at it... > > Max Kalus. Got it. It's excellent, and I will be using it quite a bit for my BP campaign. I second Max's suggestion that BP players check it out. The amount of detail and hard science that went into it is on par with that contained in Blue Planet. ### Jason Kucherawy ### ### Come climb my Treehouse at: ### http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/8557/index.html ### ### "Nature abhors a hero." ### -Solomon Short (from the novel"A Matter For Men" by David Gerold) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Cedric M. BoB PONCHY [ponchy@club-internet.fr] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 11:21 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news For the people playing with me (if any). !!! SPOILER !!! !!! DON'T READ BEYOND this point !!! !!! YOU'VE BEEN WARNED !!! !!! I'LL KNOW IT !!! It may be way out of topic, but I couldn't resist... [...] > From: Ken Walton > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news > > In article <19980407202049.23729.rocketmail@web1a.yahoomail.com>, Reggie > writes > > Example: You want Vanessa > >Williams, Elle McPherson, Pamela Anderson, etc as your personal > >sex-toy? For the right price, a genetic sample from their last check > >up is all you need, then poof large as life in the flesh. > > This isn't actually a very good argument. OK, you can maybe clone that > person, you're prepared to wait 20 years for her to be the right age, > but there's still a law against keeping people as sex-toys. It's funny as it is one of the background thread of my Millennium's End campaign, and it will probably one of the corner stones of my future BP campaign. There is a genetic disease called "gerontism" (though I'm unsure about the exact word) that causes early accelerated aging, mostly by children. At 6~10 years old, children look like they are 90. Now, it is distinct from the physical development which stays at a normal rate. Scientists sponsored by a rogue government secret organization are experimenting accelerated development of cloned subjects. They already master the cloning of human beings, they now need to find a way to bring him up to the right age in a few years. Another part of the project is centered on the psychological/educational side. A creature less than 10 years old should gain the experience of someone 30 or 60 years old, at least enough to maintain the illusion as long as necessary. To get back to the discussion at hand, what would be the status of clones or for that matter, the status of genetically engineered beings ? In Blade Runner replicants are considered as properties, like a car or a tv set. Their lifespan is artificially limited. But they have feelings, they're sentient beings. In the world of BP, cetaceans have their place in the society, some of them are even great leaders. What would happen in our world ? Things like artificial insemination opened that door; today, prenatal dna checks are routinely performed to detect genetic diseases. Some people then discover a recessive gene that prevents them to have "normal" babies. Imagine we have the technology to "correct" part of the dna code, so those people can have a "normal" baby (maybe that tech is already available); what's the right thing to do ? More important, who could/should decide what's the right thing to do ? Studies and simulations demonstrated that the evolution of a specy was made step by step; imagine a graphic chart where the horizontal line represents time and the vertical line rates the average fitness of the population of a specy. The curve looks like a stair: long periods of stagnation, followed by quick raises in fitness as the population evolves. It shows that random mutation plays a small role in evolution (though it is vital); renforcement of adequate "traits" is done by breeding, as fit individuals reproduces more and take over the rest of the population. In BP, as many sentient species share the same world, this difference may disappear in the mind of more and more people, thus leading to a situation where they first feel member of a community, then member of a race. [...] Cédric "He who wonders what you call those silly quotes" PONCHY -- Those who forget the past are condemned to fulfill it. --George Santayana, Life of Reason Those who do not archive the past are condemned to retype it! --Garfinkel and Spafford, Practical UNIX Security (first edition) -- Cédric PONCHY, The BoB Master ///\Oo/\\\ ponchy@club-internet.fr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Daniel Allard [dan@puente.jpl.nasa.gov] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 11:50 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news Dan delurks from the depths of Poseidon to reply - > > but there's still a law against keeping people as sex-toys. Well, be careful when you say "there's a law", since you need to ask - "who's law"? Taking this within the context of BP, you need to consider at least the Free Zones and the Incorporate states, where, even if such a law were to exist, it isn't necessarily going to be enforced. If anything, there's likely to be a good sized black market for bioengineered sex slaves between wealthy individuals in the Free Zones and the less moral of the Incorporate states (who of course have the resources to create such slaves). Some of these may even end up on Poseidon in the Incorporate mining colonies. Hmm, I sense a plot hook in the making... dan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: R. Stefko [stefko@westol.com] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 14:55 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news > It's also important to remember that the world population has never >been as large as it is now. In the strictest sense, we may not have any >data that is directly applicable to the modern situation. With that said, >let me also remind myself that history *does* repeat itself. Yes, but demographers from previous eras (if they had existed) would have said the same thing: "The population has never been this large, so we don't have any applicable data". That would have been true when the human population was 100,000, 1 million, 100 million, 1 billion, and so on. But the cycles still occured. And that doesn't apply just to humans. There have been massive die offs affecting thousands of _species_ over the millennia, yet there are more species on Earth now than at any point in the past. R. Stefko *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: R. Stefko [stefko@westol.com] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 15:59 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news >Well, quite a statement... "Islamic world" sounds like a monolithic >block, while there are Islamic countries, where women were minies, >and there are countries, in which women are (well, have been) prime >ministers (which is much more than most western governments have >achieved). > Yeah, you're right. I should have narrowed it down to the Mideast (excluding Turkey, which has Westernized considerably since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.) I must admit I have no clue exactly what the future will hold (I can only make educated guesses), and the human population may very well stabilize at 5 billion. I'm just frightened by the implications of such a development (no expansion into space, a population that slowly gets older and more arthritic --- both figuratively and literally --- as the life expectancy goes up and the birth rate goes down). I feel compelled to argue against the demographers' forecasts because I frankly don't want to live in Bruce Sterling's world of "Holy Fire". R. Stefko *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: R. Stefko [stefko@westol.com] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 16:09 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mad Rantings > I might tend to agree, to a point. In previous ages, although cities >and settlements were extremely crowded, one tended to count on those >directly around them to survive. In modern cities, however, where a dozen >different "tribes" of people can occupy the same city block and never really >*meet* each other, individuals are consistently finding their space occupied >by people that they not only feel they don't need, but that they do not >know. > It's an interesting social situation that, while our communication >technology allows us to have friends in countries thousands of miles away >which we've never been to, we are often surrounded by strangers we hardly >even trust not to kill us for their own benefit. > Yeah. I have a Cyperpunk 2020 supplement, an alternate setting based on Effinger's "When Gravity Fails" dark future. In it, there is a paragraph which essentially states that the only easily renewable, inexpensive, and therefore expendable resource left on Earth in the 23rd century (the "present" in the Gravity series) is human beings. And of course the corporations and governments are more than willing to exploit this resource in whatever unscrupulous ways they wish. R. Stefko *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Reggie [rqlii@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 17:03 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Nature's Balance I read somewhere a book that nature always tries to correct itself. In this book I /think/ it mentions that in wolf packs, when the population becomes too large a few will spontaneously develop rabies and die. I wonder about human maladies such as black plague, polio, aids, flesh eating viruses, etc. /If/ this is nature try to thin us out, aren't we screwing ourselves by trying to stave of death ? Daque "Apocalyptic Endings of Biblical Proportions" Kendall ;) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: James Kiley [tenzil@io.com] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 17:41 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Genetic Engineering... in news On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, R. Stefko wrote: > I must admit I have no clue exactly what the future will hold Well, of course; I hope no one got the impression that I thought I _did_ know. :) > and the human population may very well stabilize at > 5 billion. I'm just frightened by the implications of such a development (no > expansion into space, a population that slowly gets older and more > arthritic --- both figuratively and literally --- as the life expectancy > goes up and the birth rate goes down). Hm, that's an interesting point. Is population growth the only factor that drives technological development? I don't know that it is, honestly, but it's a fascinating idea. jk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD [BIOHZD@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, 09 April, 1998 23:48 To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Nature's Balance Hey Daque, You ask about the "balance of nature"... (WARNING - ECOLOGY 101 LECTURE FOLLOWS ; ) Well, in the reality of ecological population dynamics there is not really a balance of nature. The *balance* concept is actually an "eco-groovey " sentiment contrived to play on emotion and our sense of what we think *should* right. In reality, natural populations follow wave patterns of peaks and valleys. A classic example comes from almost a hundred years of fur trapping data collected by Canadian biologists; lynx vs. snowshoe hare populations. The overall picture is one in which the prey pop (the hare) increases, and then with a predictable delay, so does the predator (the lynx) population. The predators increased population subsequently depresses the prey population numbers, then declines itself as a direct result, and the wave starts over again. This rise and fall of populations is based on variation in carrying capacity - the ability of the environment to provide the myriad survival requirements of a population. Carrying capacity is the primary limitation, the one unbreakable rule of the game. Animals, plants, bacteria, whatever - they all play the game by the rules. A population gets too big and inevitably environmental factors serve to reduce it - disease, predation, starvation, whatever. Diseases do not spontaneously occur as you suggest, but a large population is more likely to have carriers or more frequent transmission, or higher susceptibility due to increasing stresses - hunger, etc. The natural world may play be the rules, but humans do not - or at least we have not for the past 40,000 years. We have, in effect, extracted ourselves from the natural dynamic by means of our technology - mass food production, medicine, prenatal care, etc. We have artificially raised our carrying capacity and IMO have put ourselves in harm's way as a result. Our technological ability has allowed us to build a house of cards that the slightest push - global warming, ozone depletion, etc. - might simply topple. In the history of life on this planet, no other group of animals has ever been in such a relative ecological position... Whoa...sorry...eight years studying wildlife ecology will do that. Well, forgive the lecture - I guess it's the teacher in me ; ). Later all, Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.