From: Adam Lewis [adamswork@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:45 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - various projectile rounds I read an article last night about a pepper gun. It fires small pellets that break on impact, release an agent similiar to pepper spray. I imagine much like a paint-ball gun. Replace the pepper with your basic fast-acting Hanover biowarfare agent and you have a devious weapon. AdamL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Adam Lewis [adamswork@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:39 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels I would guess that air travel is still the most efficient method of travel, but with land at a premium I don't picture large airports being feasible. With advances in VTOL technology, do you think there are 747-size aircraft capable of vertical takeoffs and landings? Also, does a submersible travel more efficiently than a surface ship? I'm trying to think of what merchants would use. Does technology exist to build submersibles that rival the size of the massive container ships that are currently in the real world? AdamL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: randell.wolff@murraystate.edu Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:50 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > From: Adam Lewis > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:38:53 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com > Reply-To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com > > > I would guess that air travel is still the most > efficient method of travel, but with land at a premium > I don't picture large airports being feasible. With > advances in VTOL technology, do you think there are > 747-size aircraft capable of vertical takeoffs and > landings? > I imagine it's possible. But what about airplanes that take off and land on water with the aid of skids or have hulls shaped like boats? I forget what they're called. Boat-planes? > Also, does a submersible travel more efficiently than > a surface ship? > I don't know. I just don't know. :-( > I'm trying to think of what merchants would use. Does > technology exist to build submersibles that rival the > size of the massive container ships that are currently > in the real world? > Well, the Japanese built a submarine aircraft carrier that could hold a half-dozen fighters, and that was in 1945. I imagine the technology would be even more conducive to this kind of engineering in 2199. Randell Wolff randell.wolff@murraystate.edu "Family names do not come from nowhere. Every Smith has an ancestor somewhere who was a smith. Every Fisher comes from a family that once fished. And your name is Wolf." -- Anthony Boucher, "The Compleat Werewolf" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:30 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels >I would guess that air travel is still the most >efficient method of travel, but with land at a premium >I don't picture large airports being feasible. Well, the islands are *few*, but they're not all *small*. Als, most of the land on Ppseidon is still uncharted (or paractically uncharted) wilderness - in other words, not yet being used by humans to live on, grow food on, or anything else. I'm certain that sizeable airports could still be built no problem >With >advances in VTOL technology, do you think there are >747-size aircraft capable of vertical takeoffs and >landings? Why the hell not? Sounds fun to me. >Also, does a submersible travel more efficiently than >a surface ship? No. There is much more drag, since it is surrounded by water, instead of just underneath it (or around the hydrofoils). >I'm trying to think of what merchants would use. Does >technology exist to build submersibles that rival the >size of the massive container ships that are currently >in the real world? If spacecraft that can travel the length of the solar-systems are possible, then I can't see why fully-contained submersibles of a similar size shouldn't also be around. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: thazar@globalnet.co.uk Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 9:40 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels >I would guess that air travel is still the most >efficient method of travel, It isnt, and with the possible exception of lighter than air, never has been. It's just the quickest! Sea, with Rail second, is the most efficent.....ie least engery required to move x tonnage of goods. Of course high tech magnet based zero-friction mono-rails as used by Atlas etc are probably the most efficent. Efficeny is all about least engery required to move the goods. With Airtravel you have to apply engery just to keep gravity from asserting itself.....Boats Float in a very low friction medium. DomT ------------------------------------------------ Global WebMail - Delivered by Global Internet www.global.net.uk ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: thazar@globalnet.co.uk Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 9:50 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels >>Also, does a submersible travel more efficiently than >>a surface ship? > >No. There is much more drag, since it is surrounded by water, instead of just underneath it >(or around the hydrofoils). Sorry, but at least according to my marine design texts, this is dead wrong. The largest problems in Ship steamlining is that the Hull Design has to cope with two mediums (air and water) with very different dynamics, in particular the Interface between the two mediums is a major cause of turbence and drag. Therefore if you want to go fast/efficent you have to get out of one of the mediums:- Hence hydrofoils and plaining speedboats which spend 90% of their time in the air with only drives and control surfaces in water. Submarines are much more fuel efficent than the equivilant surface ships......however they are also expensive to maintain and operate....much more so than a Current Day Merchant man who can be built cheaply and operated by a handfull of personel. >>I'm trying to think of what merchants would use. Does >>technology exist to build submersibles that rival the >>size of the massive container ships that are currently >>in the real world? The BIG advantage of Merchant Subs on Poisden will be their ability to go 'Under' weather systems. Of course those Storm Surges go deep and this will not be practical everywhere.....but the expense of a Sub begins to look good compared to building a surface merchie than out-run or survive a BIG storm. As to Tech...well the Russians already build subs bigger than a WWII aircraft carrier.......and bigger than all but the huge crude oil or bulk carriers of today DomT ------------------------------------------------ Global WebMail - Delivered by Global Internet www.global.net.uk ------------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:17 AM To: Blue Planet List (E-mail) Subject: [FWD] Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > -----Original Message----- > From: Gareth Hanrahan > To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:55:46 +0100 > > On Monday 25 June 2001 13:38, you wrote: > > I would guess that air travel is still the most > > efficient method of travel, but with land at a premium > > I don't picture large airports being feasible. With > > advances in VTOL technology, do you think there are > > 747-size aircraft capable of vertical takeoffs and > > landings? > > I'd say it's possible - either with a giant VTOL, or > something like the > Skyhook jumpcraft in Fluid Mechanics. I don't know if it's > worth it, though. > A more reasonable solution might be a big conventional > aircraft that can land > on water. > > (or a blimp :-)). > > > Also, does a submersible travel more efficiently than > > a surface ship? > > I'm pretty sure the answer is no.... > > > I'm trying to think of what merchants would use. Does > > technology exist to build submersibles that rival the > > size of the massive container ships that are currently > > in the real world? > > I'd imagine the technology exists - there are the bloody huge > Benthic-class > subs that Atlas Materials builds, and they could probably > build bigger ones > if needed. However...why bother? There are only 2 million > people on Poseidon > - that's the size of a medium-sized city, and you don't need > super-giant > container ships to service a city that size. I can't think of > any industry or > activity currently on Poseidon which requires bulk transport. > > (And now I wait for the flood of suggestions....) > > > AdamL > Gar > http://www.mytholder.f2s.com > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Andy Wills [andywills@stormsurge.org] Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 9:57 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - various projectile rounds ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane Mclean To: Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 9:04 AM Subject: Re: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - various projectile rounds > Over here in Germany you can buy replica pistols that fire tear gas pellets > ina similar way,a nd they can be legally caried without license by anyone > 18 or over. You know, that just sounds like a really bad idea. Imagine: person carries replica pistol for defense and appearance. Criminal tries to mug person with pistol. Person with pistol pulls it out and fires it because they know it only has tear gas. Criminal freaks because he's being shot at and kills person. Yuck. Reminds me of when I was nine or ten and a friend and I went down the road to shoot fake guns at cars(cap type guns, but they looked realistic), and this guy stopped and made us take him back to our parents, and we got in trouble... -Andy *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Andy Wills [andywills@stormsurge.org] Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 10:12 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Lewis To: Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 8:38 AM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > I would guess that air travel is still the most > efficient method of travel, but with land at a premium > I don't picture large airports being feasible. With > advances in VTOL technology, do you think there are > 747-size aircraft capable of vertical takeoffs and > landings? I doubt you could have a 747 size VTOL. You would need a massive amount of lift. However, think of the Spruce Goose, and take a look at Stormsurge for a seaplane with somewhat the same idea. > Also, does a submersible travel more efficiently than > a surface ship? I'm just a layman, but I strongly doubt it. First, you have much more drag on a submarine because it's completely surrounded by water. Second, you need a pressure hull, which will add weight and reduce space available for cargo. Third, you need to water-proof the hull and have all the additional equipment - ballast tanks, underwater comm, etc. In contrast, the only thing I can think of that you would gain as a merchant would be protection from storms. > I'm trying to think of what merchants would use. Does > technology exist to build submersibles that rival the > size of the massive container ships that are currently > in the real world? Probably. But without incentive, I doubt anyone would do so. Even for storms. Here on the Strait of Magellan, supertankers and other ships too big to go through the Panama canal make it through without too much trouble, although the weather is rough and it's somewhat dicey. On a side note, why does everyone try and avoid using plain-vanilla boats in their campaigns? There weren't any in the main rulebook, for example. There's practically no art showing non-native ships. Yet they must be really common on Poseidon, since ships are more efficient cargo-wise than trucks or planes or submarines. > AdamL -Andy *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:30 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - various projectile rounds (was idle thoughts) > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Czaplinski [mailto:mikec@busworks.com] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - various projectile rounds (was idle > thoughts) > At 02:23 PM 6/22/01 +0000, Jeb Boyt wrote: > [snip] > >Do you want a more conceable handgun that carries a large > >number of rounds (9 mm) or a big-ass handgun with a lot > >of stopping power (.50 cal Desert Eagle)? > > I'll take the M1911A1. 7 rounds with almost as much stopping > power as the Desert Eagle. > Not me. I had a Baretta 92F I was particularly fond of. Took it to the range one day in Wildflecken. We set up a firing point on the end of the line and compared it to the M1911s we were firing on the rest of the range. My accuracy with it was *much* better. Of course the pistols we were firing could very well have been WWII era! They certainly rattled enough when you shook it. And you wouldn't use a car or a computer that was designed that long ago ... > MikeC, or the GEO Peacemaker with guided rounds..... > Or my favorite, the interlink and no trigger so only the owner can fire it. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:32 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Other cetacians on Poseidon > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Czaplinski [mailto:mikec@busworks.com] > Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Other cetacians on Poseidon > isn't enough difference between belugas & dolphins to warrant > different game stats. I'm still going to put 'em my game, > since I've always loved the look of them, and for the purposes > I need them (specialized NPC's), > We've always said "It's your game, run it the way you want." Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:42 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Lewis [mailto:adamswork@yahoo.com] > Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > > I would guess that air travel is still the most > efficient method of travel, but with land at a premium > I don't picture large airports being feasible. With > advances in VTOL technology, do you think there are > 747-size aircraft capable of vertical takeoffs and > landings? > It would most likely be possible but inefficient. It would take a considerable amount of fuel to "hover" during take-off and landing. A STOL would be a more feasible choice most likely. And since you've got all these large bodies of water, why not use those as a runway. > Also, does a submersible travel more efficiently than > a surface ship? > Being an aero engineer I would say slower but more efficient. While parasitic drag and planform drag would be increased, avoiding the surface weather would count for a considerable increase in efficiency and speed (despite the lower cruising speed). > I'm trying to think of what merchants would use. Does > technology exist to build submersibles that rival the > size of the massive container ships that are currently > in the real world? > Currently modern container ships are limited by the size of the locks in the Panama Canal (unless the ship is intended to not use the Canal). However IIRC this may not be a design consideration for very many more years. And of course it wouldn't matter on Poseidon. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:47 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.ient.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > -----Original Message----- > From: randell.wolff@murraystate.edu > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > I imagine it's possible. But what about airplanes that take > off and land on water with the aid of skids or have hulls > shaped like boats? I forget what they're called. > Boat-planes? > Aircraft with boat shaped fuselages are called "seaplanes". In the late 20s and 30 there were a number of these operated as airliners in the Pacific since there were few runways built on many of the small islands there. Howard Hughes "Spruce Goose" was the largest of these ever constructed. The Consolidated PBY was a seaplane used by the US Navy during WWII for reconnaissance. Fixed wing aircraft with floats added in place of landing gear to allow landing on water are called "float planes". These are common in wilderness areas like Alaska and Canada for hunting trips. Landing on lakes is how they were often employed. And, of course, the landing gear could be replaced by skiis for landing on ice and snow in polar latitudes. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: David R. Crowell [gpfarm-dave@northnet.org] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 11:10 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Wills To: > > On a side note, why does everyone try and avoid using plain-vanilla boats in > their campaigns? There weren't any in the main rulebook, for example. > There's practically no art showing non-native ships. Yet they must be really > common on Poseidon, since ships are more efficient cargo-wise than trucks or > planes or submarines. > My continual plea since BP came out has been for stats on some of the more common surface vessels on Posiedon. Everything from small skiffs to fishing trawlers and cargo merchantmen. The seas should be full of them, and of course luxury vessels as well. There is an incredible variety of watercraft on Earth sail, motor, oared and some strange hybrids, lets see more of that on Posiedon. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Conan Purves [conan@conventionofassassins.org] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 11:17 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels I read an article in Popular Mechanics that did a test on the most efficient vehicles on earth. The clear winner was the fixed wheel bike (or track bike). It moved the most weight the greatest distance relative to energy expended. That's useless for cargo, but it might be interesting to get something like that on the water. On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 thazar@globalnet.co.uk wrote: > >I would guess that air travel is still the most > >efficient method of travel, > > It isnt, and with the possible exception of lighter than air, never has been. > > It's just the quickest! > > Sea, with Rail second, is the most efficent.....ie least engery required to move x tonnage of goods. > > Of course high tech magnet based zero-friction mono-rails as used by Atlas etc are probably the most efficent. > > Efficeny is all about least engery required to move the goods. With Airtravel you have to apply engery just to keep gravity from asserting itself.....Boats Float in a very low friction medium. > > DomT > > ------------------------------------------------ > Global WebMail - > Delivered by Global Internet www.global.net.uk > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 11:35 AM To: Blue Planet List (E-mail) Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - [FWD] Con GMs > -----Original Message----- > From: "Greg Benage" > To: > Subject: Con GMs > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:43:41 -0700 > > Hey all, > > I'm in dire need of GMs for Blue Planet events at Origins and GenCon. > We'd originally registered a bunch of one-hour demos to be held > throughout the cons, and they got morphed into full four-hour events > because Wizards isn't allowing free demos this year. If you will be at > either or both conventions and would like to run a BP session, please > drop me a line off-list. You'll be eligible for free admission and > free FFG product! > > Greg > FFG > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Mantisking@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:47 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels Hello All; One of the advantages of cargo subs is that they are harder to locate by satellite. This was one of the points they used in a Cyberpunk book. "Flashpoint" I think it was. Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:54 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels I think that the methods of transporting goods is a very open question on Poseidon. It is the old balance of time vs. money. With a widely scattered and thinly spread population as well as hostile terrain, an optimal solution is going to be difficult to figure out. Large, slow cargo ships would seem to be the best choice for trade between the major settlements. However, these ships would be rather inefficent for trade with the reset of the colonies. Mike Z *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Dom Twist [thazar@globalnet.co.uk] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:15 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - various projectile rounds (was idle thoughts) Heh. Again besides that m11a1 I own a m92f.......nice gun. However people have been updating that old 1911 design continuously......and these days its hard to beat a Streyer Voight custom race Gun for acuracy.....and yet its a 1911 at heart. Beats a 92f hands down. However for a practical combat pistol I'll take the Berreta. Also its costs about 1/4 of a SV infinity. DomT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heivilin, Jim" To: Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:30 PM Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - various projectile rounds (was idle thoughts) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Czaplinski [mailto:mikec@busworks.com] > > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - various projectile rounds (was idle > > thoughts) > > At 02:23 PM 6/22/01 +0000, Jeb Boyt wrote: > > [snip] > > >Do you want a more conceable handgun that carries a large > > >number of rounds (9 mm) or a big-ass handgun with a lot > > >of stopping power (.50 cal Desert Eagle)? > > > > I'll take the M1911A1. 7 rounds with almost as much stopping > > power as the Desert Eagle. > > > Not me. I had a Baretta 92F I was particularly fond of. Took it to the > range one day in Wildflecken. We set up a firing point on the end of the > line and compared it to the M1911s we were firing on the rest of the range. > My accuracy with it was *much* better. Of course the pistols we were firing > could very well have been WWII era! They certainly rattled enough when you > shook it. > > And you wouldn't use a car or a computer that was designed that long ago ... > > > MikeC, or the GEO Peacemaker with guided rounds..... > > > Or my favorite, the interlink and no trigger so only the owner can fire it. > > Jim > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Dom Twist [thazar@globalnet.co.uk] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:26 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels Mike> > I think that the methods of transporting goods is > a very open question on Poseidon. It is the old > balance of time vs. money. Agreed. > Large, slow cargo ships would seem to be the best rather inefficent for > trade with the reset of the colonies. Why? I dont see that slow = inefficent? Unless the goods are perishable whats the problem with slow? There was one on earth granted...but that was for soci-economic reasons that may...or may not ...apply on Poisden. Labour for example can be damn cheap...if its not technical. Poisden has a survival economey not a consumer one as yet. As such it may not be able to afford earths or rather Western 'Must have now' economy. With the GEO and Native feelings playing a major factor slow boats MAY be the widest solution. And if a boats going to be slow whats wrong with a sail/solar power combo? DomT *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 2:16 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels <<------------------------------>> > Large, slow cargo ships would seem to be the best rather inefficent for > trade with the reset of the colonies. Why? <<------------------------------>> The economy of scale would be lost. Lets say that a cargo ship that travels between the smaller colonies needs 40 people on board to operate. (3 shifts of 10 sailors + 3 officers per shift + the captain) Lets say that each crewman costs 100 cs/day (room, board, entertainment, pay, and benefits). Officers cost 200 cs/day. That would bring the total cost, for the crew alone, to 5000 cs/day. Let's be kind and have the cost of the ship (repairs, insurance, fuel, ect...) be only 2000 cs/day. So it is a total cost of 7000 cs/day. Let's say that the ship visits a new colony once every 5 days and that the average colony size is 500 people. Cost of the trip would be 35,000 cs. Assuming a 100% markup on there goods, the ship would have to sell 70,000 cs worth of goods just to break even. This means that each person in the colony would have to spend 140cs. For a modest profit, each member of the colony would have to spend 280 cs. Of course, this assumes a modest operation with optimal conditions. Mike Z *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Dom Twist [thazar@globalnet.co.uk] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 2:56 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > <<------------------------------>> > > Large, slow cargo ships would seem to be the best rather inefficent > for > > trade with the reset of the colonies. > > Why? > <<------------------------------>> > The economy of scale would be lost. Ah I see where you're coming from. However where you're coming from is a 20/21st century socio-economic viewpoint that may have absouletly NO relevance to Poisden. > Lets say that a cargo ship that travels between > the smaller colonies needs 40 people on board to > operate. . So it is a total cost of 7000 cs/day. True Today. But not nessacarily true in BP. It may be true for Incorpate operated shipping lines or wannabe shipping tycoons. But to my mind your just not thinking colonial here. Take a look back in time........most cargo was moved on smaller vessels which could be operated by VERY small crew...often related or partners. The Classic example is a sailing vessel carrying several hundred tons of cargo and operated by...2 Men and a boy. Possibly a ships dog or cat. Of course in those days they didnt need the close watches that modern navigating crowding requires......neither does Posiden. Automation can handle a lot if available...if not well...you'll just have to sit 12+ hour watches wont you! Personaly I've spent several days sailing continuously with only one other person aboard....Sat Nav, Radar and Computers can handle a lot of it and wake you when it needs you! Of course operating like this even on the sparsely traveled waters of Poisden will be risky but then I imagine the accident/fatality rate is higher on Posiden than on todays Oceans, just like it used to be! This is just the price of doing buisness. Your costs assume your paying a highish wage to your crew, complete with entertainment! I would assume native familys and newcomer groups live on and by their ship and ask little more than food in their mouths and cash to repair the vessel. They'd fish en-route etc. Living by and for their vessel, tramping around Poisden. Certainly this would be the pattern between most native communitys. If they trade well they might even have a sat dish and spotty access to comm-core. As ever the Peter Hamilitons Nights Dawn series has a couple examples of River Boat famillys living exactly that life. Dont think 21st C. Dont think Hi-Tech. Dont Think Low tech...think fusion of both. Sailing ships with Solar Cells woven into the Sails and Aux electric drives. Dive wells to allow 'fin access and fishing nets and hunters strewn out alongside. DomT ps I still think the idea of everything made of bio-plastic is wrong! It'll be true in the Big City and in Incorperate/GEO sites but the natives will be using more natural materials unless forced into other choices by engineering requirements. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Dom Twist [thazar@globalnet.co.uk] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:01 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels A Company Called Walker Wing Sail tried to develop the idea here in the SW UK. Lots of mony was pushed at the project and only one small sailboat was produced. It all ended in Court. Personaly I am unconvinced by the engineering....but then maybe I'm just a traditionalist at heart. DomT > Interesting. I have seen another device that consists of two vertical vanes > around the mast- kind of like an egg-beater. I think it is conected to a > propellor by a drive shaft and gears. Anyone know any more about these? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: coredump > To: > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:08 PM > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > > > > Wind power... hmmm, heard about the TurboSail ? It's a prototypal device > used on > > Cousteau's ships for better performances on a win powered ship. You can > see what > > it looks like here. http://www.dolphinlog.org/ships.htm > > > > two "real size" prototypes exist > > Alcyone : http://www.dolphinlog.org/alcyone.htm > > Calypso II : http://www.dolphinlog.org/calypso2.htm > > > > As far as I know it's been around for 15 years now and they are still > studying > > the feasibility of building cargo boats using this device. I don't know > why it > > takes so long. Maybe it's not that good... maybe they don't have the money > for > > it. > > > > Anyway... it does not look very complicated to build for a small boat. It > could > > be used by native with some scavenged materials, and a good knowledge in > > aerodynamics, nothing is impossible 8.) > > > > cheers, > > Remi. > > > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Troy Gustavel [troy_nevermore@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:04 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > > <<------------------------------>> > > > Large, slow cargo ships would seem to be the best rather > inefficent > > for > > > trade with the reset of the colonies. > > > > Why? > > <<------------------------------>> > > The economy of scale would be lost. > > Ah I see where you're coming from. However where you're coming from > is a > 20/21st century socio-economic viewpoint that may have absouletly NO > relevance to Poisden. Where he is coming from is the size of such "Large, slow cargo ships", not the speed. the matter under discussion was whether there would be great big super-cargo vessels. I believe you are both in agreement and supporting the idea that trade on poseidon will be done predominatly by smaller tramp traders. the ideal situation for a RPG setting ===== Troy Gustavel 5825 Bolender Rd. Akron, OH 44319 (330)882 5468 Troy_Nevermore@Yahoo.com "Once upon a midnight dreary..." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:12 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels <<------------------------------>> > > Large, slow cargo ships would seem to be the > best rather inefficent for trade with the rest > of the colonies. > > Why? > The economy of scale would be lost. Ah I see where you're coming from. However where you're coming from is a 20/21st century socio-economic viewpoint that may have absouletly NO relevance to Poisden. <<--------------------------->> We seem to be talking about 2 different sizes of ships. I am talking about ships that haul thousands of tons of goods while you are talking about ships hauling hundreds of tons of goods. The ships that I am talking about are cost effective for transporting goods between the major settlements. They are not good for transporting goods to the smaller colonies. The ships that you are talking about are good for that. Mike Z *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Gareth Hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:25 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > We seem to be talking about 2 different sizes of ships. > I am talking about ships that haul thousands of tons > of goods while you are talking about ships hauling > hundreds of tons of goods. > > The ships that I am talking about are cost effective > for transporting goods between the major settlements. > They are not good for transporting goods to the smaller > colonies. The ships that you are talking about are good > for that. Mike - what on Poseidon is worth using such big ships for? The only thing I can think of is massively heavy industrial gear from Lebensraum or some other manufacturing town - and there isn't much of that going on. > Mike Z Gar http://www.mytholder.f2s.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Adam Lewis [adamswork@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:49 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean daily living Do you think cetaceans have private residences? What would these be? I can't imagine an enclosed structure but where would they keep their personal belongings? What kind of stuff would they own anyway? Do they store food in a fridge or do they still hunt it down when they get hungry? Do you think body art would be a popular form of self expression among cetaceans? A barbwire tattoo around their fin, eh? AdamL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:16 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels << Mike - what on Poseidon is worth using such big ships for? >> A ship can haul different types of cargo at once and for different distances. However, only the major colonies would have the demand and the supply to keep the big ships profitable. Mike Z *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Andy Wills [andywills@stormsurge.org] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 8:04 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > Hello All; > One of the advantages of cargo subs is that they are harder > to locate by satellite. This was one of the points they used in > a Cyberpunk book. "Flashpoint" I think it was. Why is this an advantage for a _cargo_ sub. We're not talking military here. Nobody's going to be tracking you for a kill. Well, maybe pirates, but I doubt they would be common enough to make that a real advantage, except in a very cinematic campaign. Or maybe there could be a single route that is being pirated so often(with the GEO completely without clues) that someone starts sending a cargo sub to service it. Most likely an Incorporate station, since they would be the only ones with the dollars to do so. Of course it might not help, since it could be an inside job(corrupt captain and crew selling hte goods by way of a third party). Or giant squid. Does Natural Selection have giant squid? If so, I'm sold. > Ray -Andy *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Sir Charles [chalz@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:50 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > I imagine it's possible. But what about airplanes that take off and land on > water with the aid of skids or have hulls shaped like boats? I forget what > they're called. Boat-planes? The spruce goose :) > > Also, does a submersible travel more efficiently than > > a surface ship? > > > > I don't know. I just don't know. :-( I'm thinking 'not really', since you've got the matter of water being so fantastically more dense than air - 800x more dense, am I correct? WAY more friction/drag. (This was also discussed in the 'Dolphins' IMAX - how often times they'll leap out of the water for sheer speed, and also for long-range visibility - they can jump pretty damn high!) > Well, the Japanese built a submarine aircraft carrier that could hold a > half-dozen fighters, and that was in 1945. I imagine the technology would be > even more conducive to this kind of engineering in 2199. Actually, if I recall correctly, it was only 2 fighters, with collapsible wings, and parts to repair one if necessary. They also couldn't land these planes on the boat. They were intended to attack the Panama Canal (a small fleet was sent out), and the planes were basically to be ditched and the pilots picked up. Similar retrieval mode discussed for German bombing raids on the US - a plane which can make it there and about 1/4 of the way back, to be ditched and the crews picked up by U-boat. 'Deep Angel's Angelus-class carrier is absolutely massive, and that's just set in 2041. ;) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Sir Charles [chalz@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 11:17 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > Large, slow cargo ships would seem to be the best > choice for trade between the major settlements. > However, these ships would be rather inefficent for > trade with the reset of the colonies. Air ships might work for traveling around the Archipelago, even if for crossing only one island alone and not taking to the water. Also, I'm thinking of hauling ore from the mines on... err... I don't have my book on hand. The southern large island... ferrying ore from those mines out to processing centers. Not necessarily that time-critical, so slow, remote-controlled heavy haulers could probably do the job; you'd just have to put them away during storm season :/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Sir Charles [chalz@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 11:20 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > Hmmmm Perhaps the days of the Tea clipper are back? > > Thoughts people? On 'Junkyard Wars' on The Learning Channel, they had a competition where the two teams had to build 'land yachts'. It got me thinking, about using sails more like aerofoils than to collect wind and be pushed. It's pretty trippy. I wonder if it's feasible out on the open sea? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Sir Charles [chalz@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 11:49 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Mass transit, trading vessels > Your costs assume your paying a highish wage to your crew, complete with > entertainment! I would assume native familys and newcomer groups live on and Yes. If I recall correctly from the character templates - like the bush pilot - from the PG, 100cs/day is quite a high wage. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.