From: Ville.Halonen@minedu.fi Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 1:34 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Storytelling (was: Giving up) >Still, a GM shouldn't get preachy and force the message at your players. That wasn't my intention. I hate preaching. As you put it: >What you say isn't necessarily the same as what the players want to >say. It's their story too, and it helps if you take their ideas into >consideration. I remember one of the first games I GM'd, in Cyberpunk, where the players were working for MiliTech, a megacorp. They were supposed to take out a suit in his mansion, and so they did. The only thing was the suit also had his (grand-?)children present, and the PC's had to take them out too. The good thing is, they even felt bad about it. The bad thing...I had everything written beforehand. I had written long descriptions of what happens at the highlights, and of course that put certain limits to the PC's action. "No, you can't saw off his head with your knife, you have to do it with the electrical knife you will find in the kitchen. Why? Because so it is written, and I'm not gonna change it." (I was 15 or 16 then. Our games were quite violent. Looking back, I don't think it was very healthy, although I think I've always tried to keep the violence disgusting, not enjoyable. My players seemed to enjoy hacking off people's heads and mutilating them. I'm not playing with them anymore.) That was a lesson for me, and every time I now have some great idea the lesson comes back to mind and I have to reconsider. I *don't* have complete control. We got B5 on our networks in August 1997 and the finale aired in last March. Crusade ended 1,5 weeks ago. I liked it all along, but I only got 1,5 season recorded in stereo, the rest in mono, the last five I don't have at all and a few episodes really lack in the picture quality. And what *really* pisses me off is that I heard the Scifi Channel US will start showing it widescreen. Drool. Talk about lousy times: at first it showed at about 10 p.m, but most of it was around 11-12, a few episodes waaaaaaay after midnight. And yes, it has a theatrical feeling to it, and that's one of the reasons I love it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Poh tun Kai [pohtk@hitech.com.my] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:38 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Giving up > By the way, your "bad fiction" was actually really enjoyable and packed BP > in one page quite neatly. Thanks for the compliment! > A one-shot with newbies wouldn't hurt, I suppose. Try Jeff Barber's "Natural Law" or my own "Flight Hazards" as one-shots - I've found them to be good introductions to the setting. You can find "Natural Law on the BP site, "Flight Hazards is in Undercurrents #4 and I have an expanded version on Dave Klegman's site, too. > I'm trying to keep down the combat, in order to make them surprising and > memorable, and overall keep the violence such that it really isn't a good > thing. What I most like in Blue Planet is that it is intelligent, > encouraging to intelligent gameplay and stories. Never before (note, I'm 20 > in December and not that experienced with RPG's) have I really asked myself > when preparing a game, "What do I want to say with this?" Yes, by all means, putting a theme into your game can make it more enjoyable. Still, a GM shouldn't get preachy and force the message at your players. In 1997-98 I ran a Blue Planet mercenaries campaign set in Nomad, in which the character gradually became close to the people of the community, both the innocents and the scumbags. In the campaign finale, a Incorporate strike team came into Nomad with the aim of "silencing" various PCs and NPCs who had learned too much about an Incorporate conspiracy. The Incorps didn't discriminate between the locals too much, and everyone was getting hurt. The ultimate goal was to show the importance of community - sort of a "together we stand" kind of theme. The idea was that the party and the various gangsters, ecoterrorists and other locals would pull together and repel the invaders from their turf, but at first it didn't work that way - the majority of the players just stole a sub and prepared to abandon the town and all their allies there! But thanks to some superb roleplaying on the part of one PC (who sacrificed herself to stand up against the Incorp soldiers), the others pulled together and led the other inhabitants of Nomad to defeat the Incorporate troops. What you say isn't necessarily the same as what the players want to say. It's their story too, and it helps if you take their ideas into consideration. > Maybe Babylon 5 had this influence on me. Ah, another B5 fan. I watched the whole series in the US, when TNT showed reruns. Last year I introduced it to my friends in Malaysia, from the second season onward. The local station shows it at a lousy time (11.10pm) just like American stations did, but we're up to the 8th episode of Season 4 already. B5 doesn't get as preachy as Star Trek used to, but it's got a very theatrical, stagey feeling that turns some folks off, I've found. One friend of mine compares it to Greek drama. Kai Poh Malaysian Lagomorph *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ville.Halonen@minedu.fi Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 4:05 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots Last night the news' ordinary "relief" (a light, sometimes funny story told in the end)) was about the Technology Exhibition in Japan, from which they showed footage on robots. There was a 1,6 meter and 130 kg robot walking on a stage, using its eyes to navigate itself and moving quite like a human. After that a furry white robot seal that you could pet and it would close its eyes and otherwise react as if pleased. The children seemed to love them. You would think I also liked what I saw, but something just freaked me out. Maybe I've been reading too much Archipelago last days, siding with the natives, slowly turning into a technophobe? (I'm trying not to use smileys) I always thought I'd be delighted when the first cyborgs and such came around, and as this can be considered one step towards it. Too much Terminator? Too much of the bottled demon scenarios in the past? Really afraid of human-like machines? There's still a long road to go, but... I've come to think, what are those things for? Is there really a good, ethical reason to build a human-like machine? I haven't been able to think of one -- the death machines and sex toys familiar from a thousand sf stories are the only ones on my mind. And if an AI was planted in such a thing, what would distinguish it from a human except that it isn't organic? Think of God as a programmer and yourself as a program. I actually wrote a short story on the subject, but it's kind of crappy from my present self's point of view. And there's a lot of chances in Blue Planet to explore it... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 5:30 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots >Last night the news' ordinary "relief" (a light, sometimes funny story told >in the end)) was about the Technology Exhibition in Japan, from which they >showed footage on robots. There was a 1,6 meter and 130 kg robot walking on >a stage, using its eyes to navigate itself and moving quite like a human. >After that a furry white robot seal that you could pet and it would close >its eyes and otherwise react as if pleased. The children seemed to love >them. > >You would think I also liked what I saw, but something just freaked me out. >Maybe I've been reading too much Archipelago last days, siding with the >natives, slowly turning into a technophobe? (I'm trying not to use smileys) > I always thought I'd be delighted when the first cyborgs and such came >around, and as this can be considered one step towards it. Too much >Terminator? Too much of the bottled demon scenarios in the past? Really >afraid of human-like machines? There's still a long road to go, but... > >I've come to think, what are those things for? Is there really a good, >ethical reason to build a human-like machine? I haven't been able to think >of one -- the death machines and sex toys familiar from a thousand sf >stories are the only ones on my mind. > >And if an AI was planted in such a thing, what would distinguish it from a >human except that it isn't organic? > >Think of God as a programmer and yourself as a program. I actually wrote a >short story on the subject, but it's kind of crappy from my present self's >point of view. And there's a lot of chances in Blue Planet to explore it... Interesting, ain't it? I didn't see the programme, but it just so happens that I've been discussing AI etc. with some friends recently. Lots of ethical dillemas available... One thing that occurred to me: You know that "neural net" type computer/robot that they have now that they are trying to make learn? (I know it has a name, but it escapes me for the moment.) I've heard that they're making some progress towards success, but the major problem I can think of is that the rate of learning must be really small because of a lack of negative and positive stimuli to apply. Animals (and humans) learn because they get rewarded when they succeed (either by a trainer or by natural circumstance - like successfully catching the prey, or similar) and punished when they fail. How on earth do you apply this to a computer? Extra electricity? Basically, how do you make the computer *want* to learn? And if that gap can be breached, and you have a machine that feels pain and pleasure, then surely it is equivalent to an animal and must be treated the same (ie - no cruel mistreatment) And if the computer decides it doesn't like the "training regime" you are subjecting it to? Hmmm... Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ronald Johnson [ronjon@shore.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 8:12 AM To: Blue Planet List Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Supercavitating Submarines Here is an article discussing research into supercavitating torpedos, bullets, and eventually submarines, that may break supersonic speeds underwater. http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_224813.html I found this part particularly interesting: Supercavitation could completely change the nature of undersea warfare, says Galeotti, turning the traditional cat-and-mouse game, with vessels sneaking around as quietly as possible, into a cacophonous dogfight. "If we do get supercavitating vehicles, we're not going to be talking about big submarines," he says. Small supercavitating craft might instead be sent out by a mother ship on short-range attacks, wheeling about to get a good line of sight for their underwater machine guns. "It is like a shift into airborne warfare," says Galeotti. Cheers, Ron -- `The time has come.' the Walrus said, `To talk of many things: Of shoes-and ships-and sealing wax- Of cabbages-and-kings...' Lewis Carroll, _Through_the_Looking_Glass_ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 8:34 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com' Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing (was: Storytelling) > -----Original Message----- > From: Ville.Halonen@minedu.fi [mailto:Ville.Halonen@minedu.fi] > Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Storytelling (was: Giving up) > > The bad thing...I had everything written beforehand. I had > written long descriptions of what happens at the highlights, > and of course that put certain limits to the PC's action. > "No, you can't saw off his head with your knife, you have > to do it with the electrical knife you will find in the > kitchen. Why? Because so it is written, and I'm not gonna > change it." > This is one of the concepts I found most difficult to learn and put into practice when I actually started running games (I had been role playing for many years). I would put quite a bit of work into writing what I thought was a cool scenario. But if the players didn't respond as I thought they would it would throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing. And after all the effort to craft the story that can be quite frustrating. But I started watching the GMs who ran for me and pondering and I came to the conclusion that one of the most important traits a good GM can have is the ability to improvise on the spot to keep the story moving in something like the direction you originally intend. And if the direction even turns out to be something totally different than you had envisioned when you wrote the scenario that's okay, as long as everyone has fun. In a recent session our native resistance training camp/village was going to be raided by incorporate pseudo-shock troops. My mindset was how to defeat them militarily (which was a long shot at best, really more of a how-do-we-do-some-damage-and-live-to-tell-about-it). One of the players had an idea for broadcasting the attack live over CommCore that really turned things around. And it was a blast (while the straight up combat can be fun too this was something we'd never done before). So the focus changed from how to hit them and run away to how to get the best camera shots to portray the message we wanted to send. But the GM (Jeff) had to shift everything he had planned to support this new idea. So try to stay flexible when you run and everyone will probably have a lot more fun. Just my cs0.02. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 8:38 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Gribbon [mailto:c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots > > Animals (and humans) learn because they get rewarded when > they succeed (either by a trainer or by natural circumstance > - like successfully catching the prey, or similar) and > punished when they fail. How on earth do you apply this to a > computer? Extra electricity? > > Basically, how do you make the computer *want* to learn? > Off the top of my head I would say when you write the core program you include stimuli for positive and negative feedback. Therefore you would have a mechanism by which you could facilitate learning. Although if you had sufficient success eventually the robot would question "why" these feedbacks are desirable. But at that point you probably wouldn't need them any longer. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 8:41 AM To: 'blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Supercavitating Submarines > -----Original Message----- > From: Ronald Johnson [mailto:ronjon@shore.net] > Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Supercavitating Submarines > > http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_224813.html > I found this fascinating, but then I studied aero engineering in school and from the physics perspective the difference between air and water is unimportant. > Supercavitation could completely change the nature of > their underwater machine guns. "It is like a shift into > airborne warfare," says Galeotti. > While this is true my guess would be there would be large, carrier type subs which are still of the sneaky variety. At least up until they launched the supercavitating fighter subs. If anyone sees any other info on this please pass it along. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ville.Halonen@minedu.fi Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 9:16 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: VS: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing (was: Storytelling) >So try to stay flexible when you run and everyone will probably have a lot >more fun. Thanks, I know. I love to improvise and it seems I've often taken it to the other extreme by doing it with no or very little material beforehand. With the Violent Players we actually managed to play perhaps the most successful session we ever had in Cyberpunk, or any other game for that matter. I had nothing from which to start, except the old cliche the players liked, lacking imagination: "Can I start with my character a partial amnesiac, with all the skills but no memories?" I always thought that was a bad idea, but that one time it was the starting point for the game. We took out NPC sheets, rolled the stats, quickly picked the skills and blam, they were in an alley somewhere in Night City, naked. Intelligence was far from it, but as an action-packed adventure it was a success, rapid and a few surprises here and there. PC's first ran into a tv crew, and didn't even kill them (I couldn't believe it), and then got some clothes from a nearby office which was under renovation. They bumped into a PI, who gave them a job, and they screwed it. But that gave them a plot concentrating around a blown-up gas station, and there were the twists. I guess they wanted to catch the perpetrators, but the identity of the owner of the place varied. Every once in a while an important-looking NPC came and claimed he owned the gas station. Logical? No. Fun? Hell yeah. And the maybe-the-stupidest-thing-I've-ever-encountered-in-RPG's occured there also: the Big Guy, an ex-wrestler called Bulk had just had one of his arm bones broken by an Inquisitor nunchaku, and then come in the gangers in their largely overpacked car. I think there were 7 of them. Bulk stood on the road, not moving. The gangers stopped, I decided to give the PC's a chance to back off (I've always been a forgiving GM -- perhaps a little too much, even). They didn't, and to top it off, Bulk wanted to *lift* the vehicle, despite me saying you got a broken bone in your arm. It didn't budge. The boosters came and kicked the living shit out of them. Well, a bit was left and they woke in a hospital and they couldn't keep out of trouble there either... But this isn't a CP mailing list, just informing with what kind of players I had to play with for a *long* time. Our current Shadowrun campaign has been on hold for 8 months. It started as I went to my friend's house and intended to run a generic SF one shot for him and another friend. Well, there was one other and I had my Shadowrun with me, so they made characters, considering them a bit, and we started playing. It was quite successful, we had fun. And being me, I just *couldn't* keep my hands off the first session when playing the second one -- which also was quite improvised. I wanted to keep things moving and develop a plot, and brought in magical elements. After a few sessions there's a free spirit, a vigilante mage, two corporations involved (they really DID get the gatling prototype developed by one and stolen by the other, but the latter's not a big problem...I think), a racist gang, an angry dwarf supremacist gang and I hope nothing else. One of the characters has connections to the Mob, though, and was previously in a legendary biker quartet... Yes, I took too big of a bite and maybe that's why it's been on hold, in addition to my very unstable apartment situation. It'd be best to lose a few threads...but I guess I like complicated plots and just can't do it, I can't make myself do it, I'm too much of a perfectionist, I don't want to leave plots open to show I made a mistake and... Or I simply just can't decide which plot to abandon. Maybe it would be wise to calm things down after the next session and kind of start over, slowly developing it into that huge, epic web of lies, deceit, hate, hate of hate, money and such. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 9:56 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Supercavitating Submarines This appeared on /. a few days ago. Here is the link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/07/23/162249 Mike Z In a message dated Tue, 25 Jul 2000 9:47:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Heivilin, Jim" writes: << > -----Original Message----- > From: Ronald Johnson [mailto:ronjon@shore.net] > Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Supercavitating Submarines > > http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_224813.html > I found this fascinating, but then I studied aero engineering in school and from the physics perspective the difference between air and water is unimportant. > Supercavitation could completely change the nature of > their underwater machine guns. "It is like a shift into > airborne warfare," says Galeotti. > While this is true my guess would be there would be large, carrier type subs which are still of the sneaky variety. At least up until they launched the supercavitating fighter subs. If anyone sees any other info on this please pass it along. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 1:11 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots >> Basically, how do you make the computer *want* to learn? >> >Off the top of my head I would say when you write the core program you >include stimuli for positive and negative feedback. Therefore you would >have a mechanism by which you could facilitate learning. Although if you >had sufficient success eventually the robot would question "why" these >feedbacks are desirable. But at that point you probably wouldn't need them >any longer. I'm no programmer - but is that possible? If so, then do we already have computers that can "feel" pleasure and pain? Scary thought (Terminator just around the corner?)... Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 1:14 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing >one of the most important traits a good GM can have is the ability to >improvise on the spot to keep the story moving in something like the >direction you originally intend. > >And if the direction even turns out to be something totally different than >you had envisioned when you wrote the scenario that's okay, as long as >everyone has fun. Hey - what GM *hasn't* been in the situation where the PCs, while trying to puzzle out what is going on, think up something *way* cooler than the GM originally thought of; thus causing the GM to change the plot because he likes their idea better? Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:59 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots To a certain degree, such systems are currently in developement/ in use. Voice reconization systems are a prime example. Through try and error, they "learn" how to reconize what you are saying. The instructions in the core of the program would be : "You got the wrong answer, modify the algorithm and try again" and "You got the right answer, mainline the alorithm". The programmer would then have to spend countless hours playing an elaborate game of hot, cold in order to teach the computer to do anything remotely useful. I am guessing that the first place that we'll see a general usage program of this nature would be in search engines. The user would enter in a query and the program would apply its algorithms to it and return a responce. The user would then state if the information returned by the program was what he was looking for. The program could even be set up to query the user for more information. Mike Z In a message dated Tue, 25 Jul 2000 1:14:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Christopher Gribbon writes: << >> Basically, how do you make the computer *want* to learn? >> >Off the top of my head I would say when you write the core program you >include stimuli for positive and negative feedback. Therefore you would >have a mechanism by which you could facilitate learning. Although if you >had sufficient success eventually the robot would question "why" these >feedbacks are desirable. But at that point you probably wouldn't need them >any longer. I'm no programmer - but is that possible? If so, then do we already have computers that can "feel" pleasure and pain? Scary thought (Terminator just around the corner?)... Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Phillip Bernstein [GSZalonef@Netscape.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 2:12 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [Re: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing] >>Hey - what GM *hasn't* been in the situation where the PCs, while trying >>to puzzle out what is going on, think up something *way* cooler than >>the GM originally thought of; thus causing the GM to change the plot >>because he likes their idea better? It happens to sooner or later to ALL GMs .... In fact ... My wife and I have made a habit of messing with Iron Crown Rolemaster tournament GMs ... Several years ago ... at Oringins in Philadelphia, I not only came up with an alternate endng for Torgon VII, I made the die roll to make it happen ... Jason Hawkins (the GM) told this story for over a year ... Now my wife got in the act at this years (just finished) Origins ... She figured how to complete The Broken Eyes of Cathar Rolemaster event during the second session ... She actually ELIMINATED the third part of the scenario ... The moral of the story is when your playes start thinking outside the box, grab the reins and hold on for dear life. Interesting and fun things may be about to happen. Zalonef ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 2:24 PM To: 'blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com' Subject: RE: [Re: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing] > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Bernstein [mailto:GSZalonef@Netscape.net] > Subject: Re: [Re: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing] > > Several years ago ... at Oringins in Philadelphia, I not only > came up with an alternate endng for Torgon VII, I made the > die roll to make it happen ... > Jason Hawkins (the GM) told this story for over a year ... > Those are the best kind. Jeff actually made one of our playtesters (a few years before BP) nearly piss his pants. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Sakal [c_sakal@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 2:44 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots --- Christopher Gribbon wrote: > >> Basically, how do you make the computer *want* to > learn? > >> > >Off the top of my head I would say when you write > the core program you > >include stimuli for positive and negative feedback. > Therefore you would > >have a mechanism by which you could facilitate > learning. Although if you > >had sufficient success eventually the robot would > question "why" these > >feedbacks are desirable. But at that point you > probably wouldn't need them > >any longer. > > I'm no programmer - but is that possible? > If so, then do we already have computers that can > "feel" pleasure and pain? > > Scary thought (Terminator just around the > corner?)... Well, philosophically speaking, it's not even clear that other people are capable of experiencing pleasure or pain (how would one go about finding that out anyway?) - I've just taken to assuming that they do because they act like they can. In that sense, yes, it's very possible (though probably not with today's technology) to make a cpomputer that is as capable of "feeling" as a human. I don't know if that means that Skynet is going to rise and try to annihilate all himan life though, there are plenty of sci-fi scenarios as to how AI would turn out, and I don't see any good reason to prefer one over any other right now, we'll just have to wait and see how things develop. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Sean Michael Whipkey [highway@cstone.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 2:44 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [Re: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing] Phillip Bernstein wrote: > Several years ago ... at Oringins in Philadelphia, I not only came up with an > alternate endng for Torgon VII, I made the die roll to make it happen ... > Jason Hawkins (the GM) told this story for over a year ... > > Now my wife got in the act at this years (just finished) Origins ... She > figured how to complete The Broken Eyes of Cathar Rolemaster event during the > second session ... She actually ELIMINATED the third part of the scenario ... Great, now I'm going to have to bug the ICE guys (Hawkins in particular) about that to hear the stories. I see Hawk every other day or so, so it's about time I run into him again... :-) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - Geek-a-mondo "Extra ninjas make any party, family gathering, or war scene tons more interesting." http://www.ninjahypothesis.com/messenger.htm ObCompanyPlug: http://www.mrgoodbucks.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jeb Boyt [jeboyt@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 3:03 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots ----Original Message Follows---- From: Christopher Gribbon Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:29:45 +0000 One thing that occurred to me: You know that "neural net" type computer/robot that they have now that they are trying to make learn? (I know it has a name, but it escapes me for the moment.) I've heard that they're making some progress towards success, but the major problem I can think of is that the rate of learning must be really small because of a lack of negative and positive stimuli to apply. Animals (and humans) learn because they get rewarded when they succeed (either by a trainer or by natural circumstance - like successfully catching the prey, or similar) and punished when they fail. How on earth do you apply this to a computer? Extra electricity? Basically, how do you make the computer *want* to learn? ========================= Interestingly enough, today's New York Times (7/25) includes a story about two computer scientists from Natural Selection, Inc. (San Diego, California) have taught a computer to play checkers. A neural network program loaded with the rules and a few basics taught itself how to play. A colony of the programs, each slightly different than the others, played checkers against each other and the chronic losers were killed off. Slightly mutated versions of the winners were allowed to reproduce. After hundreds of generations, an expert checkers playing program was produced. Jeb Boyt Austin, Texas ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jason Hockley [jason.hockley@skynet.be] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 5:06 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [Re: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Michael Whipkey" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Re: [BLUE PLANET] - GMing] > Phillip Bernstein wrote: > > Several years ago ... at Oringins in Philadelphia, I not only came up with an > > alternate endng for Torgon VII, I made the die roll to make it happen ... > > Jason Hawkins (the GM) told this story for over a year ... > > > > Now my wife got in the act at this years (just finished) Origins ... She > > figured how to complete The Broken Eyes of Cathar Rolemaster event during the > > second session ... She actually ELIMINATED the third part of the scenario ... > > Great, now I'm going to have to bug the ICE guys (Hawkins in particular) > about that to hear the stories. I see Hawk every other day or so, so > it's about time I run into him again... Hey, now I want to hear it too. Share? Jason *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jason Hockley [jason.hockley@skynet.be] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 5:05 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Sakal" > "feeling" as a human. I don't know if that means that > Skynet is going to rise and try to annihilate all > himan life though, there are plenty of sci-fi > scenarios as to how AI would turn out, and I don't see > any good reason to prefer one over any other right > now, we'll just have to wait and see how things develop. I know this is *really* off topic, but I still find it amusing that my ISP is called Skynet. I haven't yet managed to get an answer out of them as to whether the connection is intended or not though. I certainly don't think it's organised enough for anything dangerous yet. Jason *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Atti2dboy@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 10:13 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots In a message dated 7/25/00 1:13:52 AM, Ville.Halonen@minedu.fi writes: >I've come to think, what are those things for? Is there really a good, >ethical reason to build a human-like machine? Surrogates for humans. Crash test dummies that walk and talk, giving subjective data. Even better, law enforcemers and penal system guards. Wouldn't it be better if those who have broken laws were apprehended or guarded by human appearing androids that didn't get bored, tired, cranky or sadistic? Who could lead by example, maybe even teach convicted felons how to behave. >And if an AI was planted in such a thing, what would distinguish it from a >human except that it isn't organic? Artificial intelligence does not necessarily mean human intelligence. An artificial intelligence in an anthropomorphic body could be just as unhuman as an alien. Also, artificial intelligence does not necessarily mean self awareness. Humans (or some of them) can tell themselves apart from the world around them. An artificially intelligent computer could merely be a system of algorithms that simulate intelligence. It may not be self aware. It could only change the way that it 'thinks' by changing its algorithms. It that case it would be incapable of making leaps in reasoning or intuiting the world. I think robots in rpgs are really cool. Robots are one of the reasons that I wish to play sci-fi games. I love having tools and gadgets in games, and robots are the penultimate gadget. A tool that works on its own is just way too useful. Particularly when it means I won't have to roll dice. ;-) Rich "The truly hungry man does not question the nature of the food on his plate." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jeb Boyt [jeboyt@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 11:48 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Robots ----Original Message Follows---- From: Atti2dboy@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:12:57 EDT Surrogates for humans. Crash test dummies that walk and talk, giving subjective data. Even better, law enforcemers and penal system guards. Wouldn't it be better if those who have broken laws were apprehended or guarded by human appearing androids that didn't get bored, tired, cranky or sadistic? Who could lead by example, maybe even teach convicted felons how to behave. ========================= THX-1138 anyone? Jeb ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.