From: christopher gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 11:06 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character balance / 2nd ED. >christopher gribbon wrote: > >> Otherwise they're going to play the game once, fail to enjoy themselves, and then never >play >> it again and never buy any of the supplements. >> Kind of "shooting-yourself-in-the-foot" roleplaying elitism there, no? >> >> What do people think? > >There seems to be an attitude on this list that "If you can't enjoy >playing a character who's completely inferior to another character, go >away. Only true roleplayers should play this game." Surely having a >balanced character creation system doesn't stop you from playing a weak >character if you want to? > >I find this attitude arrogant, frankly. > >Andrew Just in case I didn't make myself clear last time: The point I was trying to make with my previous email was *not* that "only true roleplayers can enjoy this game. Everyone else should go away and play D&D or something" What I am trying to say is that, while I do understand that playing the underdog *can* be enjoyable, certain people may not enjoy playing characters who are under- powered in comparison with the rest of the party. Equally - while playing a character who can do everything does seem attractive, it also gets boring after a while. I'm positive neither of these points are new to anyone on this list. However, a group consisting of relatively inexperienced roleplayers may not realise this as yet (I know I wouldn't have when I first started roleplaying). Now, if they were to play a game where the system is designed to give balanced characters, they will not come across the problems of an imbalanced party. They are therefore more likely to all enjoy themselves playing the game. If however the play a game where it turns out that one of them can do everything, and someone else is pretty much useless, they might not be having such a good time. Of course having a balanced character generation system doesn't stop you playing the underdog if you want to - all it does it reduce the liklihood of you unintentionally doing so. Now, purely from a sales point of view, it must be preferable to have as many people enjoy themselves as possible on their first try at playing BP! When I started out roleplaying (And I'm sure this is true for a lot of people), I wasn't actually *roleplaying* as such: I was solving problems, killing monsters, and saving damsels-in-distress. My character's stats and skills were all-important. I was, after all, 13 years old. I only gradually moved from this to being "in character", and realising that playing someone who occasionally had problems was actually fun too! This is all part of the maturing process, and is something most roleplayers go through. I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant. I really hope I'm *not* actually an arrogant person. Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Greg Benage [gbenage@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 5:41 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character balance / 2nd ED. -----Original Message----- From: Pink/Dungate To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character balance / 2nd ED. >There's a reason for game balance - because a >balanced character creation system allows you to begin just like anyone >else and prove your excellence through roleplaying and careful thought. First, I respect your opinion, and that of the others who have echoed your sentiments here. However, I have one question. If balance is important to you and your gaming group (and remember, it's not important to everyone), why can't you enforce/encourage that value in an open character-creation system? It doesn't seem that anyone has trouble *identifying* the "overbalanced" characters, so why not simply disallow them, tone them down, or bring them in line with the characters the other players have created? Why do you need a point-system, for example, to do this for you? >People do abuse open character systems like BP because not everyone is a >"mature" roleplayer, just like we have laws because not everyone is fair in >their dealings with others. Balance doesn't limit your roleplaying >potential, it only hinders minmaxers. Of course, people also abuse every other system out there, assuming it allows any flexibility at all in character design. In my experience (and yours may be completely different, I understand), character-point systems (as one prominent example) often lend the minmaxers legitimacy. In other words, the GM (or fellow players) have less authority to overrule a specific character because "it's allowed by the rules." In these cases, the "character balance" system can easily create more problems than it solves. Anyway, just my input on the issue. I don't consider it a question of "mature" vs. "immature" roleplayers, merely one of taste and personal preference. Thanks! Greg Benage Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 1:02 PM To: 'blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com' Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - character balance / 2nd ED. > -----Original Message----- > From: dpink@chill.org [mailto:dpink@chill.org] > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character balance / 2nd ED. > > Five dollars to the first person to mail me a really good BP index > (Canadian funds though)... > There is a new, expanded index for BP in the new game master's screen/adventure booklet, Access Denied. And having helped Jeff write it, it's got everything we could find and/or think of in it. > This is goign to sound really out of it, but is there a 2nd > ed. for BP? > Go through the archives. Jeff made an announcement when he got back from GenCon concerning future plans and a proposal for BP 2ed was one of the things he touched on. You can find them at http://www.biohazardgames.com/board.html. Jim Webmaster, Biohazard Games http://www.biohazardgames.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: mcraig@talk21.com Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 2:29 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Character balance Chris wrote: Just in case I didn't make myself clear last time: The point I was trying to make with my previous email was *not* that "only true roleplayers can enjoy this game. Everyone else should go away and play D&D or something" What I am trying to say is that, while I do understand that playing the underdog *can* be enjoyable, certain people may not enjoy playing characters who are under- powered in comparison with the rest of the party. Equally - while playing a character who can do everything does seem attractive, it also gets boring after a while. I'm positive neither of these points are new to anyone on this list. However, a group consisting of relatively inexperienced roleplayers may not realise this as yet (I know I wouldn't have when I first started roleplaying). Now, if they were to play a game where the system is designed to give balanced characters, they will not come across the problems of an imbalanced party. They are therefore more likely to all enjoy themselves playing the game. If however the play a game where it turns out that one of them can do everything, and someone else is pretty much useless, they might not be having such a good time. Of course having a balanced character generation system doesn't stop you playing the underdog if you want to - all it does it reduce the liklihood of you unintentionally doing so. Now, purely from a sales point of view, it must be preferable to have as many people enjoy themselves as possible on their first try at playing BP! When I started out roleplaying (And I'm sure this is true for a lot of people), I wasn't actually *roleplaying* as such: I was solving problems, killing monsters, and saving damsels-in-distress. My character's stats and skills were all-important. I was, after all, 13 years old. I only gradually moved from this to being "in character", and realising that playing someone who occasionally had problems was actually fun too! This is all part of the maturing process, and is something most roleplayers go through. I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant. I really hope I'm *not* actually an arrogant person. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It dosen't sound like an arrogant viewpoint to me. I fully concur with Chris's viewpoint about the entire character balance thing. From my point of view, the *character* of a character is far more important than any stats. Someone could have the most awful stats and skills but if they came up with a good background, personality and character traits then I, as the GM, would be prepared to cut them some slack or give their character certain advantages relating to their background/personality. And before anyone makes Vampire comparisons, I've been running games in this manner for years. As Chris has said, I hope this is not considered an arrogant attitude, as the majority (I wouldn't say all) of the players whom I have run games for over the years have enjoyed the more character driven aspects of the game. Cheers Malcolm Craig *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: daniel [unp2@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 4:11 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character balance / 2nd ED. Pink/Dungate wrote: > There's a reason for game balance - because a > balanced character creation system allows you to begin just like anyone > else and prove your excellence through roleplaying and careful thought. In > other words the balanced system exists to force you to use your roleplaying > ability to distinguish yourself ( a positive thing in my mind). If a balanced system helps you, then, by all means, use it. I, on the other hand, have found out that I don't need really need one. But that's just a personal preference. The main reason that I called this discussion "silly" is that I've use both balanced and open systems, and I enjoyed them both. Each of the game systems I know promotes a different style of play, gives you a different feeling for the game. I like variety. The world would be quite boring (roleplaying-wise) if there was the one system to end all other systems. > Balance doesn't limit your roleplaying potential, it > only hinders minmaxers. I have to admit that I've never really grasped the concept of minmaxing. My first roleplaying game was a play-by-email without rules, character stats or a gamemaster. Everything was possible, but the only thing that counted was your creativity. From that point of view, I'm not overly concerned with character stats - in fact, filling out the character sheets is just something that happens automatically after the character is already finished in my head. I guess my point is that rules are there to help you to enjoy the game. And what is enjoy is completely in the eye of the beholder. > And yes this is a silly argument, but since this is a list devoted to a > silly subject (role playing itself), then why not have arguments about > balance? What else can we argue about, the existence of a higher power? > That's another list altogether. ;-) True words. We should just look out that we don't take balance as serious as the existence of a higher power. This list is about having _fun_. JEHOVA, JEHOVA, *crack* .... Bye, Daniel -- Daniel Hahn (dhahn@gmx.de) http://www.uni-karlsruhe.de/~unp2 "Chaos always wins, because it is better organized" - T. Pratchett *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Daniel Hahn [unp2@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 4:15 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character balance / 2nd ED. > This is all part of the maturing process, and is something most roleplayers go through. You mean, there are really _mature_ roleplayers out there?! My goodness... -- Daniel Hahn (dhahn@gmx.de) http://www.uni-karlsruhe.de/~unp2 "Chaos always wins, because it is better organized" - T. Pratchett *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Nelson Lamoureux [haver@sympatico.ca] Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 6:45 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - character balance / 2nd ED. >> There's a reason for game balance - because a >> balanced character creation system allows you to begin just like anyone >> else and prove your excellence through roleplaying and careful thought. In >> other words the balanced system exists to force you to use your roleplaying >> ability to distinguish yourself ( a positive thing in my mind). > > If a balanced system helps you, then, by all means, use it. I, on the other > hand, have found out that I don't need really need one. But that's just a > personal preference. > > The main reason that I called this discussion "silly" is that I've use both > balanced and open systems, and I enjoyed them both. Each of the game systems I > know promotes a different style of play, gives you a different feeling for the > game. I like variety. The world would be quite boring (roleplaying-wise) if > there was the one system to end all other systems. > >> Balance doesn't limit your roleplaying potential, it >> only hinders minmaxers. > > I have to admit that I've never really grasped the concept of minmaxing. My > first roleplaying game was a play-by-email without rules, character stats or a > gamemaster. Everything was possible, but the only thing that counted was your > creativity. From that point of view, I'm not overly concerned with character > stats - in fact, filling out the character sheets is just something that > happens automatically after the character is already finished in my head. > > > I guess my point is that rules are there to help you to enjoy the game. And > what is enjoy is completely in the eye of the beholder. It's been quite some time since I started roleplaying and I think IMHO there's no such thing as a balanced character generation system. Name the game, I'm quite sure there's a way to make unbalanced characters. I've never been a minmaxer myself but, as probably most of you, I have had to deal with some serious minmaxers and rules loophole finders. And systems based on points distribution (à la WW) are the worse in that matter. That being said, I believe that the GM has to apply its veto on character generation. It has always been our group's habit to let the GM double check our character sheet before starting a game. It was also frequent to hear the GM ban a character class from his game. The best way to go is to make sure everybody's having fun. If for some group its to have character balance, then the GM should definitely rule some BP profession out, the marshall the most obvious example. Else, make sure every player is having its place under the sun, be it an underdog or a Supertrooper. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Nelson Lamoureux haver@sympatico.ca ArM Code 1.2 4+ R+ H+ SG++ G++ Y10 C-- FZ-- P+ HoH(B F+ Q) CD ------------------ «De ces deux puissances, la force et l'intelligence, c'est à la fin la force qui est toujours vaincue.» Napoléon I *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 9:47 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Back from the mountains... Hello All, I am only just back online at Biohazard HQ, and am happily overwhelmed by the amount of list traffic that awaited me. I have read it all, and will respond to individual points, notes and questions as time permits. I do have some general comments in the meantime however, as relate to the gestalt of your posts. So, in no particular order: 1. In the alliance we are considering Biohazard would retain ownership of *all* it's intellectual properties. We would also maintain *all* creative control over the BP product line. Much of the past five years of my life has been poured (usually one drop of blood at a time) into BP. You can be assured that we will do nothing to jeopardize the quality and intent of the line. 2. The company in question currently does not have an RPG line as such, and BP would stand as its flagship RPG product. As a result there should be no concern about conversion to house systems or revamping of the product to fit preexisting standards. 3. The "second edition" BP is a stipulation of our potential partner. The intent is to recreate the excitement/momentum of a new product line and in doing so hopefully reach an audience currently unfamiliar with BP. 4. Though everything is only tentative at this time, there are currently no plans to revamp the BP mechanics. IMO it is impossible to create a system that will please even a majority of gamers, let alone all of them. That is not to say, given the opportunity, we will not take the chance to tweak a few things here and there ; ). 5. We designed BP to be the sort of game we wanted to play, as much as one we hoped others would like to play. We preferred a system where street urchins had fewer starting resources (skills, ChIPs, whatever) than scientists because it is realistic and presents interesting roleplaying opportunities. We address character balance as a potential problem on BP 5 and 269, suggesting ways to deal with it.The marshal question is an old one, and has been batted around the list before. I personally love the marshal concept, but maybe you might like them better only as NPCs. That's cool - there are only twenty four of them on the entire planet of Poseidon after all. In the end it is all a matter of personal preference and what is fun for you and yours. As we suggest on BP 7, make the game your own... 6. As cool as the binder or binder-ready ideas might be, there are practical concerns (primarily financial) that are prohibitive. Even laying out the basic book in a "cut-the-binding" friendly format would cost extra due to increased page count. I would like to sincerely thank you for your input, ideas and concerns. They are welcome insight into our customers preferences and we appreciate your time in sharing them with us. Later all, Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 9:50 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Poseidon Olympics? Hey Jason, You have some great questions about the state of sport in the world of BP, and it sounds like you may have given it a lot more thought than we (except maybe for Hydroshot ; ). Could we encourage you to do an Undercurrents article on the topic? Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Nelson Lamoureux [haver@sympatico.ca] Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 9:10 PM To: Blue Planet list Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - One shot scenario I was wondering, would it be possible for you guys at BHG to put on your web site a jumpstart kit like the one Atlas is doing for Ars Magica (its called Promises, Promises). Everything would be included: pregenerated characters, rules summary, quick background primer. I think it would be a great way to get more people to try BP. I'm saying this because when I try to get people to play BP they always answer that yeah, it sounds interesting but you know, we're not sure and we dont want to take hours to generate character we're not even sure we'll use again, yadda yadda. With a complete kit like that, no excuses, we could get into the game right away! I know, there's the Natural Instinct scenario available from the web site but it's not exactly what I'm looking for. It really needs to be a complete package with just enough to make players want more. Like to buy the complete BP book. Just my 2 cents. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Nelson Lamoureux haver@sympatico.ca ArM Code 1.2 4+ R+ H+ SG++ G++ Y10 C-- FZ-- P+ HoH(B F+ Q) CD ------------------ «La bêtise humaine est la seule chose qui donne une idée de l'infini.» Renan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.