From: Lise et Marco [cantin.gendreau@sympatico.ca] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:58 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean Tactics Personally I've no problem with the relations between the dolphns and the humans in this novel, or the way technology was adapted to fit both humans and dolphins. My problem is the way dolphins were uplifted and the other galactic races. But on the other side, the genetic manipulations of the phins is a good source for an adventure. Imagine an experience were phins are genetically blended with a Poseidon marine predator.... Marco "David R. Crowell" a écrit : > Brin's take is reasonable. I just don't like it. Those who want to use it > for their own BP games will have no hard feeling from me, I just don't want > to see it become the official line. I have always been a bit surprised that > I don't like Uplift as I have liked other Brin works. > --dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Czaplinski > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:39 PM > Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean Tactics > > > In defense of Brin: > > > > The Uplift Universe was created 10-15 years before Blue Planet was, > > so naturally it will not necessarily reflect current thinking. > > > > I personally think Brin's take on Cet intelligence is reasonable, and not > > incompatible with BP's at all. BP plays kind of like the way Brin's > > phins were in the distant past to me. > > > > MikeC > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: David R. Crowell [gpfarm-dave@northnet.org] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 5:12 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean Tactics Brin's take is reasonable. I just don't like it. Those who want to use it for their own BP games will have no hard feeling from me, I just don't want to see it become the official line. I have always been a bit surprised that I don't like Uplift as I have liked other Brin works. --dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Czaplinski To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:39 PM Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean Tactics > In defense of Brin: > > The Uplift Universe was created 10-15 years before Blue Planet was, > so naturally it will not necessarily reflect current thinking. > > I personally think Brin's take on Cet intelligence is reasonable, and not > incompatible with BP's at all. BP plays kind of like the way Brin's > phins were in the distant past to me. > > MikeC > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Andrew Whincup [shanhat@angelfire.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:58 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetation communication I thought dolphins had a language. I can't remember where I heard it but I believe that scientists on the East coast of Scotland (either Aberdeen or Dundee) had been invesstigating it and had got about fifty words or so, but they thought that it was more than just a sonic language. This may all be garbage but I'm relatively certain I heard it somewhere. --- Shanhat "I'm too young to marry Too old to mess about Let me be your carry out At closing time." Oysterband http://shanhat.webjump.com/ Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: David R. Crowell [gpfarm-dave@northnet.org] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 12:01 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean Tactics I think what bugged me was his take on dolphin personality and culture. That and the Trinary language thing. I just couldn't get into it. The idea that Marco just mentioned gives me images of an Uplifted Greater White, scary, very scary..... ----- Original Message ----- From: Lise et Marco To: Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean Tactics > Personally I've no problem with the relations between the dolphns and the > humans > in this novel, or the way technology was adapted to fit both humans and > dolphins. > My problem is the way dolphins were uplifted and the other galactic races. > But on the other side, the genetic manipulations of the phins is a good source > for an adventure. Imagine an experience were phins are genetically blended with > > a Poseidon marine predator.... > > Marco > > "David R. Crowell" a écrit : > > > Brin's take is reasonable. I just don't like it. Those who want to use it > > for their own BP games will have no hard feeling from me, I just don't want > > to see it become the official line. I have always been a bit surprised that > > I don't like Uplift as I have liked other Brin works. > > --dave > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mike Czaplinski > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:39 PM > > Subject: RE: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean Tactics > > > > > In defense of Brin: > > > > > > The Uplift Universe was created 10-15 years before Blue Planet was, > > > so naturally it will not necessarily reflect current thinking. > > > > > > I personally think Brin's take on Cet intelligence is reasonable, and not > > > incompatible with BP's at all. BP plays kind of like the way Brin's > > > phins were in the distant past to me. > > > > > > MikeC > > > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > > > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > > > > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 6:29 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetation communication Hello Shanhat, In a message dated 9/16/01 12:03:14 PM Central Daylight Time, you write: > I thought dolphins had a language. I can't remember where I heard it but I > believe that scientists on the East coast of Scotland (either Aberdeen or > Dundee) had been investigating it and had got about fifty words or so, but > they thought that it was more than just a sonic language. As with primates, scientists have taught dolphins to use a basic vocabulary to communicate wants, ideas, intents and emotional states. For all intents and purposes this is language, but it is not a cetacean language, it is one we taught them. In fact, it was only earlier this summer that results were published verifying that dolphins were even self-aware. I assume self-awareness is a prerequisite for an abstract language. Hope this helps, Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tarliman2@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 9:10 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Cetacean communication In a message dated 9/16/01 6:34:29 PM Central Daylight Time, BIOHZD@aol.com writes: > In fact, it was only earlier this summer that results were > published verifying that dolphins were even self-aware. I assume > self-awareness is a prerequisite for an abstract language. Self-awareness is one of the prerequisites for determination of sentience. It may be required for the use of high-order lilnguistic functions, see below. The phrase "abstract language" is to some extent redundant. The proper definition of a language includes the following attributes: Semanticity, also called patterning: The signal conveys meaning through association with objects and events. Arbitrariness: the signal does not necessarily represent the object or event directly, with the exception of onomatopoeic words such as "bang". Cultural transmission: The signals are handed down through generations and across members of the tribe. Duality: Phonemes have no meaning, but combine to create morphemes, which do have meaning. Displacement: Ability to refer to objects not present, events not currently happening. Prevarication: If you can't lie with it, it's not a language. Structure dependence: It has a grammar, a set of rules by which morphemes are collected, ordered, and sequenced. Creativity, also called productivity: It lives, it grows, you can encompass new concepts in it. The ability to prevaricate is considered one of the hallmarks of non-egocentric sentience, which can be considered a tautology. Therefore, self-awareness is necessary for use of at least one of the higher functions of a language, prevarication, and may be required for the use of creativity. FYI, chimpanzees demonstrated self-awareness decades ago. The experiment wasn't feasible with dolphins, so we had to wait for closed-circuit television to determine dolphin self-awareness. Andrew Ragland tarliman2@aol.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.