From: jh39 [jh39@ukc.ac.uk] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 7:25 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence and Spoilers On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 17:58:30 +0000 Jason Werner wrote: > SPOILER WARNING > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo D4 is, if memory serves, aware of its own existence. Not only does it > react to stimuli, but it has its own motivations, changes according to rules > that are essentially inscrutiable. This (1) means that if we're going to > have AI's, they have to meet substantially more than the most basic test, > and (2) #1 is certainly possible, since it's been done. > > -Jason Werner Just out of interest, has anyone done anything much with Hugo in their games? I didn't like the idea at first, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of Hugo somewhere in the background tentatively manipulating or observing things. Players could get anonymous job offers to gather information on the Aborigines for him or something. And, slightly less on topic, I'm trying to track down the title of a Brian Aldiss story about AIs. It takes a different tack to most modern stories. It's only a handful of pages long but it's about AIs throwing a massive party for the entire human race every year on the anniversary of their creation, as a big "thank you" to their creators. -Jason Hockley *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Sakal [c_sakal@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 12:13 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence RE: Right. But you could program a DNA computer to PRODUCE that structure, which would then most likely be naturally interfaced with the computer. The theory has nothing at all to do with the DNA actually doing the thinking; the fact that the storage and coding system is in the same format, basically, as the final result is naturally would just make artificially creating that result easier (like trying to program an application analogous to something written in C using BASIC... it could possibly be done, but it would be a LOT easier to do in C). Um, coding DNA to develop into something isn't easier than anything. The interactions needed for an organ (never mind one as complicated as the brain) to develop correctly are incredibly complex and usually have to do with all of the surrounding tissues, and you want to manipulate this on a genetic level? It's anything for straightforward to go from genes to structures - doing this ANY other way would be easier. Besides, using DNA for computer storage is a fundamentally different use (at least as we understand it today) than using it as genetic material. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: jh39 [jh39@ukc.ac.uk] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 7:38 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Cc: Fading_Suns_Games@onelist.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Submarine no. 6 On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 03:28:17 -0400 Kintaro Oe wrote: > My special HK bootleg DVD arrived today, and except for some of the > subtitles running off the screen, it's bu-tee-full. And great inspiration > for both Fading Suns and Blue Planet (which is why I'm cross-posting this - > there's a reason, really). You've just managed to screw up my carefully organised reference system for my RPG mailing lists though. Which folder do I put this message in? Do I waste space by keeping both copies? Too many games, not enough days in the week. And I feel I need to taunt all those of you complaining about owning more games than you play. I have the same situation but since moving to this University it's rapidly swinging the other way. I worked out a few days ago that I spend 3 times as much time per week gaming as I do going to lectures. Jason *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Dr Ian McDonald [ian.mcdonald@iname.com] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 7:58 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence Quote this if you like. The phrase "neural net" refers to a network of synapses that activate or inhibit the synapses they are connected to. I've only heard it used to refer to computer models of neural nets. Usually, a neural net system has some neurones that are activated as input, and some that are measured as output. Neural nets can be 'trained' to produce the right output for the right input. Of course, a real human brain comes with some important pieces of information (how to recognise faces, for example) installed at startup. And it takes a human brain years to pass the Turing test, and decades to mature. At the time of writing - the last months of the twentieth century - all the connections in the nervous systems of one or two very simple organisms are known, and can be simulated in computer. It's theoretically possible that BP technology could reach AI that way - by copying what exists in life. Especially as the BP biotech is (by say GURPS standards) more advanced than computing. On the other hand, there's always the possibly that the brain turned out to be even more complex and difficult to model than we realise today. That there's not mention of such an AI in the players' guide suggests that this technology has not happened, or if it has is restricted to secret organisations. The main path to AI - the wholly original, rather than the copying of life - is beyond the scope of the author. Ask Kevin Warwick :). Chris Stilson wrote: > > Well, OK... so my theory is way off. However, there IS an alternate one > that would work? And could anyone put together a coherent theory with > possible practical application and then allow me to put it up in the > Resources section of Storm Surge? *looks around hopefully* > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr Ian McDonald" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 10:56 AM > Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence > > > > > > > Therefore, for a BP computer to achieve AI, it would need something > other > > > > than a DNA storage device. It would need a physical architecture that > > > would > > > > somehow mimic the structure of the human brain. > > > > > > > It's called a neural net, and is used frequently in real-life science. > > (A number of research groups used it for the protein folding problem, > > which my PhD at UCL was related to.) The main problem you can't use it > > for AI is computer power. Of course, I would expect that to change by > > 2199. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian McDonald -- Ian McDonald http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 10:22 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence >Now, with a quaternary >coding system that would be provided by a gene computer, Or a lot more than quaternary - if you decided to go for *combinations* of bases (codons) like the actual genome does. A potential 27 (I believe), if you go for 3-base codons like the genome currently does - and only for a 3-fold "loss" in storage capacity. Not a bad trade-off, really ... Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 10:24 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence >RE: Right. But you could program a DNA computer to PRODUCE that structure, >which would then most likely be naturally interfaced with the computer. The >theory has nothing at all to do with the DNA actually doing the thinking; >the fact that the storage and coding system is in the same format, >basically, as the final result is naturally would just make artificially >creating that result easier (like trying to program an application analogous >to something written in C using BASIC... it could possibly be done, but it >would be a LOT easier to do in C). Well - as far as I can see (not being a computer person in the slightest) - the advantage to DNA comouters is the sheer smallness of their memory medium. Single molecules - and all with a pre-existing, extremely hi-fidelity method of reading and rearranging it. Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 10:27 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence Follow Up Flag: Reply? Flag Status: Flagged I thought the big thing about the human brain was sheer number of neuronal synapse connections it can potentially form. Something like "more potential combinations of connections than there are atoms in the universe", wasn't it? In my (limited) understandint, this is what leads to the vast storage/processing capacity. >Quote this if you like. > >The phrase "neural net" refers to a network of synapses that activate or >inhibit the synapses they are connected to. I've only heard it used to >refer to computer models of neural nets. Usually, a neural net system >has some neurones that are activated as input, and some that are >measured as output. Neural nets can be 'trained' to produce the right >output for the right input. > >Of course, a real human brain comes with some important pieces of >information (how to recognise faces, for example) installed at startup. >And it takes a human brain years to pass the Turing test, and decades to >mature. > >At the time of writing - the last months of the twentieth century - all >the connections in the nervous systems of one or two very simple >organisms are known, and can be simulated in computer. It's >theoretically possible that BP technology could reach AI that way - by >copying what exists in life. Especially as the BP biotech is (by say >GURPS standards) more advanced than computing. On the other hand, >there's always the possibly that the brain turned out to be even more >complex and difficult to model than we realise today. That there's not >mention of such an AI in the players' guide suggests that this >technology has not happened, or if it has is restricted to secret >organisations. > >The main path to AI - the wholly original, rather than the copying of >life - is beyond the scope of the author. Ask Kevin Warwick :) Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 10:54 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Submarine no. 6 > You've just managed to screw up my carefully > organised reference system for my RPG mailing lists though. > Which folder do I put this message in? Do I waste space by > keeping both copies? Too many games, not enough days in the > week. It goes in both, of course! > And I feel I need to taunt all those of you > complaining about owning more games than you play. I have > the same situation but since moving to this University it's > rapidly swinging the other way. I worked out a few days ago > that I spend 3 times as much time per week gaming as I do > going to lectures. if you mean anything relating to gaming, I'm right there with you. Problem is my actually time spent around a table with some friends it woefully miniscule. - kabael - Kintaro Oe - Derek the Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 the McGuffin Group - the End Times - RPG Action - the Thirteenth Legion "Smiling fishee please don't attack me" - Steven Martini, "Corduroy Penis" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Chris Stilson [crazycat@orcalink.com] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 1:36 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence Arg... you're scaring me. I can only hope that this technology is as far in the future as FluMech suggests, otherwise I'll never learn to program... (I can just about handle 2 states; four is pushing it). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Gribbon" To: Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence > >Now, with a quaternary > >coding system that would be provided by a gene computer, > > Or a lot more than quaternary - if you decided to go for *combinations* of bases (codons) > like the actual genome does. > A potential 27 (I believe), if you go for 3-base codons like the genome currently does - and > only for a 3-fold "loss" in storage capacity. > Not a bad trade-off, really ... > > Christopher Gribbon > Vision Research Laboratories > Medical Sciences Institute > University of Dundee > Dundee DD1 5EH > UK > > (01382) 344 229 > ____________________________________________________________________ > > "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to > descry the cement of the universe. > He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" > > - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Mantisking@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 1:48 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - artist credits Howdy all; I'll have to agree with Kintaro Oe about the artist credits. Along with knowing which artists to follow it's nice to know which ones to avoid. Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Mantisking@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 1:56 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Submarine no. 6 Howdy All; Blue Submarine #6 is a cool anime, and in true anime fashion shifts from all-out action to thought-provoking philosophy. There is a dubbed movie version available at Blockbuster Video for those in the U.S. who aren't subtitling snobs. Definitely rent this one for a look see. The combination of computer and cell animation is very good. Oh yeah, you can also get some game ideas from it! :) Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: kabael@softhome.net Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 3:14 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Submarine no. 6 > Howdy All; > Blue Submarine #6 is a cool anime, and in true anime fashion > shifts from all-out action to thought-provoking philosophy. There > is a dubbed movie version available at Blockbuster Video for those > in the U.S. who aren't subtitling snobs. Subtitles are the only way to go! I wouldn't mind dubs so much if they didn't almost universally suck the life out of people who watch them :) >Definitely rent this one for > a look see. The combination of computer and cell animation is > very good. Oh yeah, you can also get some game ideas from it! :) actually, I would say that the cell and CG meshing is quite poor. The cell animation is beautiful, but the CG is okay-to-poor, especially in the beginnig. They do water really well, but a lot of the CG is only so-so and the sea spiders (evil mecha) are downright horrible. apparently the animaters are more than aware of that, however, and like it. - kabael - Kintaro Oe - Derek the Guder - kabael@softhome.net - ICQ# 24193592 the McGuffin Group - the End Times - RPG Action - the Thirteenth Legion "Smiling fishee please don't attack me" - Steven Martini, "Corduroy Penis" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Mantisking@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 3:22 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Fluid Mechanics Hello All; I finally picked this up. I'm still waiting for my v.2 books (aaarrgghh! It sucks being friends with the people at your local gaming store, you can't really yell at them.). Some of the entries in the book were really cool. I really liked how it didn't concentrate on weaponry the way some gear books do. It's nice to learn something about a setting by looking at the technology. I do have some questions though... "Hard Target" Armored Battledress-- who's the John Woo fan? Confounder & Matador-- Who's the Steve Perry fan? Current Detection Glove-- Just Gotta love this things nickname. Hotwire-- What kind of material can be heated to 1000 C? Toxin Scavengers-- Would it be possible for supertroopers to have a new gland that produces these? Devil's Dance-- I'm surprised that one of the incorporates hasn't tried to modify this into an over-the-counter stimulant. Weapons Chapter-- One thing I liked from a gear book for Dark Matter, was how they listed weapons. They'd list, say, a 9mm pistol and then at the end of the description they'd give the names of different manufacturers. Just a different way of doing things but it falls perfectly in between the generic/specific argument. Sasers-- About time someone did a decent sonic "laser". When these are mounted on cetacean combat power shells, I assume that there is some sort of "hearing" protection incorporated into the suit? Bloop Tube-- Why 60mm RPGs? Why not the current 40mm or even 20mm? Lifeguard Relex Program-- I absolutely loved this one. A common real life problem addressed in an rpg. "BrainChild"-- Is the 2nd set of modifiers in addition to the 1st, or does it supercede them? Cetacean Osmoform with Manipulators-- Bbbrrrrr. Too creepy, looks like a Cthulu worshipping dolphin. Well, that's it for now. Great job on the book guys. Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Dr Ian McDonald [ian.mcdonald@iname.com] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 11:43 AM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Artificial Intelligence Christopher Gribbon wrote: > > I thought the big thing about the human brain was sheer number of neuronal synapse > connections it can potentially form. Something like "more potential combinations of > connections than there are atoms in the universe", wasn't it? > In my (limited) understandint, this is what leads to the vast storage/processing capacity. This can be modelled in silice, if you throw enough computing power at it. 'Enough' is far beyond the level of computer power currently available. -- Ian McDonald http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/alternative.html http://travel.to/startrekcolony - Star Trek: Colony site & .mov http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~type40/who-rpg.html - Dr. Who RPGs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Ml10@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 7:56 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Submarine no. 6 In a message dated Sun, 22 Oct 2000 4:29:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kabael@softhome.net writes: << Subtitles are the only way to go! I wouldn't mind dubs so much if they didn't almost universally suck the life out of people who watch them :)>> Technically, all anime is dubbed. Sometimes it is in Japanese and sometimes it is in English. The lack of respect that English dubbing gets is due to 3 factors : the quality of sound mixing, quality of voice actors, and lip flap. In the eary days of anime (in the US) the sound quality of English dub was horrid. Just watch the English dub of Project Ako and your ears will bleed. These days, it is getting a lot better. And some companies have eliminated the problem completely. Lip flap is the term for when the mouth moves out of sync with the sound. Lip flap is very common in subtitled anime. I guess that most people miss it because it occurs at the start of each sentance, when everyone is reading the subtiles. In English dubbed anime, there is actually less lip flap as the producers work very hard to eliminate it. But because people don't spend that 1/2 second reading a subtitle, they tend to notice it more in the English dubbed versions. The biggest difference is the quality of the voice actors. Japanese voice actors and their directors understand the story better than their American counterparts. Since they understand the story better, they can better voice their characters. The perfect example is in Serial Experiments Lain. At the end of one episiode, Lain greets her sister. In the Japanese version, it was a very jarring and important moment. In the English version, much of the meaning is lost as the voice actress completely missed the point. Mike Z *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Poh Tun Kai [tun.kai.poh@hitech.com.my] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 8:51 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Submarine no. 6 > Howdy All; > Blue Submarine #6 is a cool anime, and in true anime fashion > shifts from all-out action to thought-provoking philosophy. There > is a dubbed movie version available at Blockbuster Video for those > in the U.S. who aren't subtitling snobs. Definitely rent this one for > a look see. The combination of computer and cell animation is > very good. Oh yeah, you can also get some game ideas from it! :) I've seen the Japanese (no subtitles) version out here in Malaysia, at least 2/3s of it. Great stuff. One of the players had a fighter-sub inspired by the GRAMPUS. Everyone is encouraged to watch it. Oh, and for the mecha fans out there, GRAMPUS has _arms._ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Poh Tun Kai [tun.kai.poh@hitech.com.my] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 8:55 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - miniatures > I was in Toy 'R Us today and saw some MicroMachines miniatures that > might do for Blue Planet in a pinch. > Does anyone know of any miniatures useful for BP? I have many modern > day and CyberPunk figures but > none that could stand in for a Native. If those are the Micro Machines I'm thinking of, no, I disagree. Too colorful and misproportioned. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Poh Tun Kai [tun.kai.poh@hitech.com.my] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 8:56 PM To: blue_planet@lists.ient.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - miniatures > I would > love to see BioHazard/FFG release a line of BP cardboard minis. Where else > are we supposed to find an orca Peacekeeper mini? ;-) > > - Fixer I dunno, I always used beanie baby 'fins with all sorts of weapons duct taped to their backs. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.