From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 11:01 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Planet Chat Hey All, There has been some talk about a Blue Planet discussion in the newly formed Prosperity Station Yahoo club chatroom. I do not really have a topic or agenda in mind, but an open Q&A session might be a fun. I was thinking maybe this Sunday, 11/21, 6-8pm central time. What do you think? Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [jskln1@uas.alaska.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:49 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift Tun Kai Poh wrote: > > We speak much the same way in Malaysia. But we don't use "lah" quite as much > as you might think. Not hip any more-lah. Since we know (from your article in UC 5/6) that a significant number of Malaysians were included in the original colony, what coloquialisms would you suggest throwing into Native speech to indicate Malaysians in the linguistic genepool? > For the uninitiated, many Malaysians think of Singapore the same way that > Americans think of Canadians (amused contempt). And many Singaporeans think > of Malaysians the exact same way... Which reminds me in a roundabout way... Does Biohazard have any definite plans for Alaska, or can I make some suggestions? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:23 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - The Archaeology/Paleontology Adventure Seed Hey Malcolm... Wasn't Hamilton's series split into several smaller volumes over in the US? I seem to recall seeing a "Reality Disfunction pt. 1" and "pt. 2" being sold separately in paperback...haven't read it though. (snip) >This gives me a thought. Would anyone like to >exchange ideas/PCs/adventures etc for the Westcape setting. I know I would >especially like some fresh input and I'm reasonably confident that at least >some of my stuff may be of interest to others. I look forward to future >postings. Sounds great. My games tend to be set in the Zion Islands but Westcape also has a lot of potential and I may send my PCs there someday. Eva Piltch (are you still there Eva?) once wrote a fanfic set around Westcape, starring Bernardo Oliveira...don't think it ever made it to the list. Kai Poh Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:18 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift Brian said: >Or maybe BP is settled all by >Singaporeans: "My brother-la eat some 'fun'.' (The last word being Southern >Mandarin for 'noodles,' of course.) We speak much the same way in Malaysia. But we don't use "lah" quite as much as you might think. Not hip any more-lah. In my campaign, most of the Singaporeans are holed up in an enclave on Penang Island back on Earth...I'd rather not invite the wrath of my local players by suggesting that half the folks they're going to run into on Poseidon are Singaporean. For the uninitiated, many Malaysians think of Singapore the same way that Americans think of Canadians (amused contempt). And many Singaporeans think of Malaysians the exact same way... Kai Poh Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:01 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - NuInklish, Confusing Chrises Prayin Petty wrote: >I'd love thoughts. Anyone? I'm getting a little confused (and busy at work), so I'm probably only going to read this thread irregularly. Whatever you come up with for NuInklish, could you remember to write it up on a website somewhere (Biohazard's is good, and Dave Klegman would also probably be glad for submissions to his Professional Casualties site) so I can read the final version? :) Kai Poh Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [jskln1@uas.alaska.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:48 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Settings > Westcape seems to be popular choice for a campaign setting. My campaign is > currently located in Perdition and, if all goes to plan (which it never Sorry to be contrary - I enjoy setting my games in Second Try - odd construction + minimal GEO makes it easier to throw things at them from all sides - most incorporates have a presence there, as do natives & GEO. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: John M. Kahane [jkahane@comnet.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 4:10 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Meta-Plots and Self-Containment Hullo, Jason, >On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:02:16 +0000 (GMT), Jason Hockley wrote: > You know, this reminds me of something. I was >looking over the maps of Poseidon in the main rulebook >yesterday. I haven't looked at them properly for a long >time and I suddenly realised just how much "uncharted >territory" there still is in the game. It's a whole bloody >planet and so far only the Pacifica Archipeligo has been >dealt with in detail! This must provide a little leeway at >least. That was something I realized the first time I looked at the BLUE PLANET maps after reading the main game book, although I had no idea that the company wouldn't put out a lot of books for the game over the next couple of years or so. I mean, after all, BP has been on the market for two years plus now, but there have only been the three books for it. Like you said, "big bloody planet." :) ... Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea. (Jethro Tull) JohnK jkahane@comnet.ca http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: John M. Kahane [jkahane@comnet.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 4:03 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Languages in BP Hullo, Kai, >On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 04:52:07 GMT, Tun Kai Poh wrote: >BP 2nd edition could really do with some clarification of the Language >skill, like mentioning that you have to take each language separately, etc. I totally agree with you on this. That is the one Skill in the book that is lacking any real description or clarity. ... Blessed are the pessimists, for they hath made backups. JohnK jkahane@comnet.ca http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: John M. Kahane [jkahane@comnet.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 4:02 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Return to the Fold Hullo, Kai, >On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 04:45:13 GMT, Tun Kai Poh wrote: >> Well, after an absence of a year and four months or so, I've >>returned ot the BLUE PLANET fold. >Welcome back! Thank you... It's good to be back, but the water seems a tad cold. :) >> I trust the water is still warm, and the inhabitants are still >>temperate? >Yeah. I tried to write a BP novel, but that stalled the moment I got a real >job (in Malaysia). And things were really slow for the last few months, but >then UC 5/6 happened and a bunch of guys started posting a lot, blah blah >blah. That's always the way of it, though, isn't it? :) Jobs do tend to get in the way of stuff, especially roleplaying, since one has less time to do the work on the roleplaying game stuff than one would like. On-topic, since it's always a good idea to get back to the topic , I just downloaded UC 5/6, and thought it was very good. Some very interesting stuff, especially your Storm Widow material. I am still impressed with your creativity when it comes to this game, Kai, even after two years of running it myself. (Now, don't let the compliments go to your head too much, okay?) >>... Cuteness is okay, as long as something terrible happens to them. (JMS) >Absolutely agree with that one. Yeah, that J. Michael Straczynski guy sure has some interesting thoughts, doesn't he? ... "It is a courtesy not to leave dead men orbiting the moon." - Nathan Spring (SC) JohnK jkahane@comnet.ca http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: John M. Kahane [jkahane@comnet.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 3:52 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Meta-Plots and Self-Containment Hullo, Chris, (It is alright to call you Chris?) >On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 0:32:21 +0000, Christopher Gribbon wrote: >>Other than BLUE PLANET, the only other rpg that is >>handling the meta-plot consistently is TRIBE 8. That has more to do >>with quality control of the product than anything else. >I know it's an unpopular choice of manufacturer, but I have to say that theWhite Wolf >TRINITY metaplot is being handled quite well (maybe despite themselves...) I can't say that I'm a fan of the WW stuff, but that's primarily because there's too many "for more info on , see the Sourcebook" things. One of the reasons I stopped buying WW products early on in the VAMPIRE and WEREWOLF lines. So I will take your word for it on the meta-plot business. >> One of the things I realised very early in my GMing life is >>that the only material that is "canon" in an rpg is that which the GM >>decides is canon. >But of course. But it's amazing how few GMs actually take this idea to heart. And work with it. Too often, folks think that the games rules or the new supplement or whatever are the "canon" stuff. Perhaps it's a lack of creativity to some extent, but I suspect it's just the gaming industry and the kinds of things all those supplements for games have done to the gamer mentality. ... Sex tones the body and makes two people feel good. JohnK jkahane@comnet.ca http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: John M. Kahane [jkahane@comnet.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 4:07 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Meta-Plots Hullo, Andy, >On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:01:13 -0500, araglan@us.ibm.com wrote: >What about Earthdawn? It had a massive meta-plot going, and I thought it >developed quite well through the sourcebooks and published adventures. Blue >Planet is still to some extent in its inancy; I'd give its meta-plot time >to evolve. The next couple of sourcebooks will be the proof of whether >Biohazard can do it well. Proof in the pudding and all that. Agreed with you on the above. I had forgotten about EARTHDAWN to some extent. Thanks for reminding me (and the rest of the folks here) about that one. ... "You say tomato, I say koditch." - Line from Jorune children's song. JohnK jkahane@comnet.ca http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: John M. Kahane [jkahane@comnet.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 3:49 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Distribution Problems Hullo, Andy, >On Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:16:59 -0800, Andy Wills wrote: >> Besides, the real magic would be to see copies of ACCESS DENIED up >> here in Canada. I know I would like a couple of these for myself, >> and the sf bookstore that I run is in need of some to sell to the >> public as well. :) >You're probably aware of this, but Blue Planet has distribution >problems, at least in my area. The local game/comic store can't find >Blue Planet stuff on their list to special order--I know, I tried. And >they're fairly clued in, with games like Furry Pirates and Feng Shui. Well, this is something that I'm hoping to remedy. I run a science fiction and fantasy bookstore in Ottawa, and we carry a selection of roleplaying games, including BLUE PLANET. If all goes well, I should be carrying ACCESS DENIED at the store some time in the near future. (We already have the basic rules and ARCHIPELAGO at the store.) >I'd prefer to support my local game shop, but they can't get it. I find it interesting that many local gaming shops don't carry it. This must be more of a distributor problem, than one at the Biohazard end of things. Just too many people out there don't know about BP.... :( ... If ignorance is bliss, how come there aren't more happy people? JohnK jkahane@comnet.ca http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: BIOHZD@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:09 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Totally off Topic - Jackie Chan Hey All, I really do not *want* to drift so far off the BP topics, but... Jason, you write: The second is more of an amusing triviality. Apparently when Jackie Chan was born his parents were very poor and tried to sell him to a doctor for 300 dollars. He's worth a little more than that now so I assume they don't regret not managing it. :) >>>>This is sort of a reversal of the facts. Jackie was almost a month overdue at birth, and a huge baby. In fact he was a rather fat kid until he began opera training. He was delivered by C-section, and the bill was $300. The doctor, childless herself, offer to adopt him in exchange for the fee. Jackie's father's friends took up a collection though, allowing Jackie's parents to keep him. Fixer, you write: Even more interesting (or trivial ;-) trivia: Sammo's facial scars are courtesy of Mr. Chan. Both grew up in the same rough part of town, and were once on opposite sides during a street fight. >>>>Actually, this is another confusion. Jackie was about eight when his parent's sent him to Chinesse Opera (read acrobatics/martial arts/singing/acting/dance) school. Sammo, not his real name but I forget how to spell the actual one, was one of the oldest students when Jackie started, and from the start they did not get along. As Jackie got older they fought all the time, but they were always members of the same school. In the end the both became part of the school's main acting troop, The Seven Little Fortunes. After they left the school many of the seven continued to work together. I got most of this from Jackie's entertaining, revealing and suprisingly humorous autobiography "I am Jackie Chan" - a fun read. Sorry for the divergence, Jeff Barber Biohazard Games *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Atti2dboy@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 8:13 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Distribution Problems In a message dated 11/16/99 2:50:43 PM, stuart@thelieingman.freeserve.co.uk writes: >Do gamers in the states think that the whole Hasbro/ Wizards takeover will >damage gaming? There seems to be alot of consolidation at the moment. In a word, "no". I believe that with the proliferation of RPers on the net and print-on-demand printing that gaming will not be hurt by consolidations. I foresee inexpensive targeted gaming products becoming more prevalent in he near future. Alternity is a very bland agglomeration of every aspect of sci-fi gaming. It has no flavor of its own. With a lot of work a GM could whittle it down to something interesting. I do not know how well Alternity has been selling in the long term, but I believe that it does not represent a trend. =Rich "I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted paychecks." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [jskln1@uas.alaska.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 8:10 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Sammo (was: Landsrechts) Tun Kai Poh wrote: > > Interesting trivia: young Sammo and Jackie were in an early John Woo kung fu > film, back when Woo still did kung fu films. And of course, Sammo studied WHICH ONE?!? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:20 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift >> Keneng wo hai yao tan-yi-tan. (Sannian-jian wo xuele yige xueqing zai >> Beijing Daxue.) > >God, I hate to be a nit, but that should probably be: > >yige xueqi.)> > >Sorry, I don't mean to sound pompous. I hate it when I sound like this, >but I guess youshihou jiushi meibanfa. Aaiiee! Far too many people who can actually speak lots of languages! I'm going to curl up in a ball somewhere 'cos I can't! I'm a failure! >And to anyone who's read this far who isn't Brian Betty: Is this >getting too off-topic for your tastes? Hell - you should read those "History of Gaelic / Scotland / The Celts" emails I've been contributing too. If no-one's complained about those, I'm sure as hell not going to complain about something like linguistic evolution, which is *much* more relevant to BP than all that. I'll just feel stupid, 'cos I don't undertstand any of it! Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:09 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - On Gaellic >Going back to my other mail. The picts were made up of the Brochs and the >Duns. The romans called them Picts or Painted People. I know that a lit of places where Picts used to live are still called "Pit-" (Pitodrie, etc.), but I was under the impression that Duns and Brochs were both types of building. Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:03 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift >I pos follow messij lidl wil ago, bat aparenli it dint reech lis. I hop >dis isat reedandan. Saree if dis iz sekan kapee yoo gat." > >I'd rather: > >Ai postit dhe falowin mesij a litl hwail agou, bat apeirentli it diden ric >dhe lis. I hop dhis izen ritantan. Sari if dhis iz a secen kapi yu gat. > >And > >don wori, it's nat. ai onli gat dhis verzjen. Okay - who's been reading "Feersum Endjinn" (by Iain M. Banks) then? Bascule The Rascule! Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 6:59 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift >Not that I think everyone spoke English as a colonist. I find it likely >that English was continued to be used heavily as a common language, much as >it tends to be today, and hence would tend to stick on as a common language >among BP peoples. But nearly ALL BP Natives might not be native English >speakers. Easily. English is used in all sorts of settings as a common >language. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on how, say, native Arabic >speakers from the Sudan would have prompted language shift. Well, there *is* the problem that pretty much all of Poseidon's original colonists (who subsequently became the Natives) were hand-picked top scientists. Currently, English is pretty much definately the "universal language" for science (although, of course, most scientists don't speak it as a first language). This would make it likely that all of the original colonists would have spoken English with each other, and likely their children would have picked it up as their language. Therefore, most natives on Poseidon would be English speakers. Of course, this is a generalisation, and the language would have ... mutated ... slightly during their isolation, but I still think English would be the Lingua Franca (sic). Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: gareth hanrahan [hanrahag@iol.ie] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 6:33 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [OT] Re: [BLUE PLANET] - RPG Pricing (was Metaplots) >In a message dated 11/15/99 7:49:08 PM, BIOHZD@aol.com writes: > >>I suspect that very few gamers know just how expensive it is to put >>out an RPG, and just how marginal the profits, and the general market, >>truly are. Hah! You can't lie to us any longer! Greg Stolze told us the truth... http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/gregnov99.html :-) Gar *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Atti2dboy@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 6:26 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - RPG Pricing (was Metaplots) In a message dated 11/15/99 7:49:08 PM, BIOHZD@aol.com writes: >I suspect that very few gamers know just how expensive it is to put >out an RPG, and just how marginal the profits, and the general market, >truly are. You are probably correct. However, how is the gaming public to know if they are not told? Most people involved in role playing have not done research into game publishing. To them it is just a hobby. They post their ideas to mailing lists and on web pages with no recompense for their labor. I sometimes forget that their are people out in the world that are publishing games for money as well as love of the hobby. >I am always surprised that an RPG book over $20 is griped about, and >yet people will drop $50 on the latest computer game with little >thought. I gripe about the price of all of my entertainments; comic books, paperback books, theater tickets and role playing games. Most people complain about price increases. Better that people gripe about pricing than they stop purchasing products. Prices continue to rise and people involved in the industries complain about sales dropping off. This is a surprise? I would rather buy inexpencive, specialized gaming products than expencive gaming products with lots of material. =Rich "I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted paychecks." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Brian Betty [bbetty@glad.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 3:57 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Everything 3: language "3) Language drift? Even more interesting, what gives?" I can speak to this. We're discussing potential language change of the English language in the future. Just started that discussion. I'm sort of assuming now that English will remain a lingua franca (ironic, ain't it) for the future, with all the problems that entails, without assuming BP settlers are native English speakers. We've been chatting about NuInklish, which is what I've been terming my theory on future English usage. I know I'd love more commentary, so ... - Monkeygod (8-0) Until we start to make a move to make a few things right you'll never see me wear a suit of white oh i'd love to wear a rainbow every day and tell the world that everything's okay but i'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back 'till things are brighter, i'm the man in black. -Johnny Cash, 1956 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Malcolm Craig [malcolmcraig@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 3:28 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - The Archaeology/Paleontology Adventure Seed Andy Wills wrote >>Aborigine Combat Drone, which disrupts electronics around it. >The >>electronic disruption will foreshadow the drone's arrival--as >nightvision goggles fizzle, leaving the PCs helpless. Nice idea. There is a well described situation such as this in Peter F Hamiltons 'The Reality Disfunction'. If you can wade your way through the first 400 pages of the book, you will find quite an entertaining read. Anyway, the beings in 'TRD' cause electronics to malfunction and go haywire. The problems this causes and the reactions to it are very described. Westcape seems to be popular choice for a campaign setting. My campaign is currently located in Perdition and, if all goes to plan (which it never does), the players will finally get to meet Bernardo Olivera after four months of campaigning. This gives me a thought. Would anyone like to exchange ideas/PCs/adventures etc for the Westcape setting. I know I would especially like some fresh input and I'm reasonably confident that at least some of my stuff may be of interest to others. I look forward to future postings. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Malcolm Craig [malcolmcraig@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 3:18 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Everything!! Help! I've been occupied with other things for a while (mainly professional exams at work). I come back and find hundreds of postings in my email from the mailing list. I really don't have a spare week to read them all (or even read the archived versions on the BHG website). So, could some kind person out there please clear up a few things: 1) What is this great adventure project seed/outline/thingie/idea that I hear about? 2) Land rights? That sounds interesting, have any conclusions been reached? 3) Language drift? Even more interesting, what gives? Sorry about this, but I've been away a while. Still been running my campaign, but thats about it. Thank you to anyone who can clear this up for me. Cheers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Brian Betty [bbetty@glad.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 2:29 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift Reicel Kranik rot: "Actually, it'd be "Kranik" or even "Kanik," depending on how far we're taking the compound consonant simplification. (Yes, my last name is homophonous with "chronic.")" Hokay, thought it was Kroh-nick. "Actually, I made quite a few mistakes in my first attempt there. But forgive me, it's my first time writing NuInklish." No prob-lah. After all, you'll note I made errata myself! Par example, it's TONT not DONT, TITEN not DIDEN, etc. Oh well. Reicel then said, "However, I do kind of disagree about some of those things. I say more below..." "Sorry, I don't mean to sound pompous. I hate it when I sound like this, but I guess youshihou jiushi meibanfa." Of course. I never write in Pinyin anyway, but I hate making long, long, long chains of syllables a la Altaic languages (a la peanut butter sandwiches?) Obviously, a lot of my opinions on this are based on my students' common mistakes and ways they tend to bend English. For them (as in Chinese languages), there isn't any time conjugation, even as simple as the creolizations you mentioned. For them, time is purely marked by an explicit time phrase; otherwise, it ain't necessary. Now, I agree that this is rather more than English could be able to part with on such a small timescale, but I think that creolization as an international language might do that. Perhaps the internet, etc. will cause faster evolution?" Hmm. But ALL languages have tenses, although not in the strict sense of "time tenses." Completion tenses are characteristic of Chinese languages and some creoles. English has a tense and a partial completion tense (I was going v. I went) and the collapsing tense system of NuInklish could end up with either form. If BP settlers are heavily Chinese, maybe they'd end up with completion tenses, for example. English as spoken by various African-American communities has a completion tense in the present tense, as well: "I be goin'." Regrettably, I'm not sure I understand the subtleties of the use of "be." As many BPers aren't Americans, I'd like to mention that this issue is quite contentious, since most Americans understand squat about linguistics and simply think "those black people speak badly" when in fact the grammatical rules speakers of this dialect use are solid and well-understood by their users. "On a slightly-BP note: how far could the Natives' and the newly arrived folks' forms of language have diverged in 80 years? Does anyone have real-life examples? (Taiwanese and Mainland Mandarin have only had about 50 years to diverge, and there hasn't been the sort of radical physical division between them that happened between Poseidon and the Earth.) Actually, Natives are probably very easy to distinguish by language alone, no?" Well, things can move pretty fast in communities separated so drastically from each other. I would say there are real limits, but I expect regional accents and vocabulary shifts can happen quickly. There are good precedents for this - the early Germanic dialects under the Frankish empire of Peppin, Mayor of Australasia moved very quickly apart because of the "High German Sound Shift", and this was within the confines of a single empire in a short period of time. The shift is still moving outwards over German communities, but the initial change was quite sudden. Tiny, isolated groups can evolve faster linguistically than larger speech communities, and certainly there is quite a lot of isolation on BP. "Well, the number of native speakers who already say articles almost subvocally ("Bin tu dstore? Dja geta stuff I ast yfor? Naw, ats nota kin I sed. I wanida bigunz.") is rising, in my experience, and people who speak a Chinese language as their native language have totally no idea how to use articles (partially because they can't usually hear them when native speakers say them). Trying to explain how to use them is one of those subjects I try to stay away from in class, due to extreme pain. I think they could either get reduced so far that they become automatic noun-markers, or they get completely lost. But that's just my take on it." Yeah, maybe. But I have a hard time on this - they've stuck around a long time seemingly without reason to ... "Actually, I could see scholarly English becoming the new Latin -- the bastion of the upper-classes, a way to talk about the proles without resorting to the vulgate. Even more than it is now. Maybe." More like the vocab used by the Natives will be significantly skewed in the eyes of the new fish on the block; I'm thinking mostly about Native speech when I'm talking here because I can't visualise an educated Earth changing as rapidly as isolated, insular pockets of Native groups on an alien planet. They won't have tv or commsys to equalise accents while they are cut off from Sol System, so that'll be a great opportunity to localise. "Yeah, probably... But it's already happening to a large extent. "Y'know my brother, he's the one with the green hair, well he's gonna go get it dyed blue now..." I personally see that as a topic][subject structure. But maybe that's my Chinese bias?" I have the same view, but have concluded it is my Chinese bias, so perhaps we can get a third opinion on the subject? Or maybe BP is settled all by Singaporeans: "My brother-la eat some 'fun'.' (The last word being Southern Mandarin for 'noodles,' of course.) "Sorry... Could you give me an example to show the difference?" Mandarin T v. D versus Spanish T v. D. There is no expressed air in Spanish T UNLIKE in English - hence my point about the (un)importance of voice in modern English. "Brian: Perhaps we can eventually compose some NuInklish sea chanteys or pop songs to give this a bit more BP relevance." Arrrrh. I'm a pirate now. - Monkeygod (8-0) Until we start to make a move to make a few things right you'll never see me wear a suit of white oh i'd love to wear a rainbow every day and tell the world that everything's okay but i'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back 'till things are brighter, i'm the man in black. -Johnny Cash, 1956 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Rachel Kronick [rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:24 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift HI again! Guda see yu sa it. Ack. Brian Betty wrote: > > Reicel Kronik wrote: "I posted the following message a little while ago, > but apparently it didn't reach the list. I hope this isn't redundant. > Sorry if this is the second copy you've gotten." > Actually, it'd be "Kranik" or even "Kanik," depending on how far we're taking the compound consonant simplification. (Yes, my last name is homophonous with "chronic.") > I pos follow messij lidl wil ago, bat aparenli it dint reech lis. I hop > dis isat reedandan. Saree if dis iz sekan kapee yoo gat." > > I'd rather: > > Ai postit dhe falowin mesij a litl hwail agou, bat apeirentli it diden ric > dhe lis. I hop dhis izen ritantan. Sari if dhis iz a secen kapi yu gat. > > And > > don wori, it's nat. ai onli gat dhis verzjen. > Actually, I made quite a few mistakes in my first attempt there. But forgive me, it's my first time writing NuInklish. However, I do kind of disagree about some of those things. I say more below... > It gets a lot easier when written in NuInklish script. For example, "dhe" > looks really awkward when written d-h-e, but it's a breeze with edh, which > is just a d with a "-" across the vertical bar. It's used in Vietnamese, > actually. > > "(I also have some theories about the future of the Chinese languages, but > I assume there's less interest in that on the list.)" > > Keneng wo hai yao tan-yi-tan. (Sannian-jian wo xuele yige xueqing zai > Beijing Daxue.) God, I hate to be a nit, but that should probably be: Sorry, I don't mean to sound pompous. I hate it when I sound like this, but I guess youshihou jiushi meibanfa. But anyway... In Taiwanese Mandarin, at least, -n and -ng as well as many other complex consonants (sorry, I don't actually know the linguistic terminology very well, as is probably already obvious) are losing mutual distinction very quickly. The Pinyin (main romanization system I use) sounds "cheng," "ceng," "cen" and "chen" are all, for example, becoming one sound. I personally can't see it going on much longer; I see Taiwanese Mandarin either a) reversing course and becoming much more rigid (either tonally, maybe regaining some of the original eight tones, or, um, whatever non-tonally is called, just stressing pronunciation much more), or b) becoming vastly more creolized (using even more Chinglish and whatnot to distinguish). Which way it goes depends largely on politics, in my opinion. But this is getting a bit too far off-topic... > > "I see the following happening (meaning both that I see it happening now, > and I predict that it will continue to happen up to the years that BP is > concerned with):" > > Okay: > > "Perfect tenses die out. Even past tense starts to die." > > I see rather a *reorganization* of tenses per common creolisation systems, > but perhaps 100 years isn't enough with long-lived granpas & granmas. It > means that verbs aren't conjugated in the past, simplifying them markedly. > It sounds really strange, but Hawai'ian Creole uses tenses just like these > and that didn't take much time to develop at all. > > For example: > ai go, yu go, he go(z), we go, dhei go. > ai bingo (I went) > ai wilgo (I will go) > Obviously, a lot of my opinions on this are based on my students' common mistakes and ways they tend to bend English. For them (as in Chinese languages), there isn't any time conjugation, even as simple as the creolizations you mentioned. For them, time is purely marked by an explicit time phrase; otherwise, it ain't necessary. Now, I agree that this is rather more than English could be able to part with on such a small timescale, but I think that creolization as an international language might do that. Perhaps the internet, etc. will cause faster evolution? On a slightly-BP note: how far could the Natives' and the newly arrived folks' forms of language have diverged in 80 years? Does anyone have real-life examples? (Taiwanese and Mainland Mandarin have only had about 50 years to diverge, and there hasn't been the sort of radical physical division between them that happened between Poseidon and the Earth.) Actually, Natives are probably very easy to distinguish by language alone, no? Speaking the language is probably a sign of collaboration. I can picture the barfights... "What'd you say? Dang, that ain't no way to talk! Speak real English, not that weirdo Posie garbage!" (Actually, my original interest in English as an international language came from my time in Beijing. [Wo ye zai nabian xueguo bannian, 1992niandeshihou.] I didn't really think of English as an interesting thing until I heard a Russian woman and Chinese street-seller haggling in English over the price of some silk garments. Russian and Chinese -- the two share a huge history, and a common border, but still they were using English!) > "Articles get lost altogether." > > Yes, but not within 200 years. Highly unlikely. > Well, the number of native speakers who already say articles almost subvocally ("Bin tu dstore? Dja geta stuff I ast yfor? Naw, ats nota kin I sed. I wanida bigunz.") is rising, in my experience, and people who speak a Chinese language as their native language have totally no idea how to use articles (partially because they can't usually hear them when native speakers say them). Trying to explain how to use them is one of those subjects I try to stay away from in class, due to extreme pain. I think they could either get reduced so far that they become automatic noun-markers, or they get completely lost. But that's just my take on it. > "Possible loss of separate third-person singular verb forms." > > Yep. > :) > - Large reduction in vocabulary (many formal/informal distinctions between > Latin/Germanic root words may get lost as one is chosen over the other)." > > Yep: without a scholastic bent, a lot of words will be lost or new ones > made up. Actually, I could see scholarly English becoming the new Latin -- the bastion of the upper-classes, a way to talk about the proles without resorting to the vulgate. Even more than it is now. Maybe. > > "A possible switch from subject based to topic based grammar." > > A little drastic for 200 years? > Yeah, probably... But it's already happening to a large extent. "Y'know my brother, he's the one with the green hair, well he's gonna go get it dyed blue now..." I personally see that as a topic][subject structure. But maybe that's my Chinese bias? > "Possible streamlining of prepositions. (What's the difference between > burning up and burning down? Not much.)" > > Hmm.... maybe. Prepositions are more important for languages like ours that > aren't marked for case. Very true, but at least some basic ones (go to, look at) may get reduced beyond recognition as separate units. > > "(Never did understand the difference between aspiration and voice.)" > > And you live in Taiwan?!?!?!? Zenme ne! > Sorry... Could you give me an example to show the difference? > - Monkeygod (8-0) > > Until we start to make a move to make a few things right > you'll never see me wear a suit of white > oh i'd love to wear a rainbow every day > and tell the world that everything's okay > but i'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back > 'till things are brighter, i'm the man in black. > -Johnny Cash, 1956 > And to anyone who's read this far who isn't Brian Betty: Is this getting too off-topic for your tastes? Brian: Perhaps we can eventually compose some NuInklish sea chanteys or pop songs to give this a bit more BP relevance. About all for now... -- Rachel Kronick *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Heivilin, Jim [banzai@missouri.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:18 PM To: blue planet list (E-mail) Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - That whole WOTC thing To head off a reemergence of the entire WoTC/The Destruction of Gaming As We Know It discussion, I present an article a friend of mine wrote after interviewing Peter Adkison, president of WoTC. Jim -----Original Message----- Found it! http://www.gamingoutpost.com/features/misc/Copy%20of%20wotc_qa.shtml or Q&A Session with Peter D. Adkison, President of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. by Sandor Silverman September 11th and 12th, 1999 By now, anyone with even a mild interest in the hobby gaming industry has heard the recent (Sept. 9th, 1999) news concerning the upcoming sale of Wizards of the Coast to toy and game giant, Hasbro, Inc. Anyone still hiding under a bridge can bring themselves up to speed by reading the press release prominently featured on both Wizards of the Coast's and Hasbro's web pages. It pretty much explains what's going to happen to Wizards of the Coast by month's end. This is fine for those of you who are content to just play the games, but some of us have a deeper, even prurient, interest in what goes on in the gaming industry. Maybe it's a need to belong, maybe it's a desire to see what stocks might be hot next month, maybe it's just nosiness, but the bottom line is: we want to know "why?" Fortunately, I had the opportunity to talk with Peter D. Adkison, President of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and have a Q&A session about this weekend's hot topic: the Sale. When I learned I had the rare opportunity to hear the story straight from the man who was in the middle, I started furiously scribbling down insightful questions. After all, I was Johnny-On-the-Spot. An unscheduled press conference and I'm the only one on the horizon who even looks like a reporter. Pen and notebook in hand, I managed to wake before the crack of noon and meet with Peter, ready with questions like a 3rd level magic user with a stack of Magic Missiles online. Peter beat me to the punch, however, and launched into the story of how the sale came to be. Why sell? Was WotC failing? Was it a hostile takeover? Was Peter going to sell out and buy his own island someplace that had never even heard of role-playing? Nothing so dramatic. Wizards of the Coast started in a basement with seven employees and limited cash flow. They did what many other companies do early on: offer stock and options to its employees. That was a couple of years ago, and a few years later, these stockholders asked a legitimate question: when are we going to "realize value" on these stocks? This weighed heavily on Peter and has been a concern of his as President and CEO for the past few years. The company began looking for "liquidity options," ways of paying out to the loyal stockholders. WotC has enjoyed phenomenal growth in the early nineties and approached the end of the decade as a maturing company with sustained growth for the past three years. Earlier this year, it was decided that WotC could fulfill the "liquidity options" in a number of ways. After dismissing a number of "buy out" options, it was settled on either going public or selling the company to a parent company. WotC was shopped around and entertained a number of suitors, while also preparing itself in early '99 to sell on the exchange. Either option was viable until one became the most attractive. After a number of false starts, with WotC leaving the bargaining able, a deal was struck this summer with Hasbro for the purchase of WotC. The deal has yet to go through. Friday, September 10, 1999, a shareholders meeting was called to ratify the purchase. However, with 2/3rds of the shareholders already agreeing to vote for the buyout, the meeting is fait accompli. So now you know why Wizards of the Coast is willing to be sold, but why would Hasbro want to buy them? The answer isn't because Magic: The Gathering is great, or that role playing games are profitable, or even that Pokeman is the rage. Simply, Hasbro wants access to the creative powers of WotC to fuel Hasbro Interactive, one of the largest "interactive gaming" developers in the market today. And feeding off the Pokeman rage doesn't hurt either. Will WotC change because of the purchase? Will a company noted for over a century of "family games" bring role-playing inline with its corporate vision? Not likely, according to Peter Adkison. He feels that Hasbro is buying WotC for its potential in the interactive gaming sphere, and that WotC an exploit Hasbro's position in the market to bring "hobby games" to the mainstream. WotC will remain both independent and the dominant player in the hobby gaming field and maintain creative control over upcoming products, like next summer's release of "Dungeons and Dragons, 3rd Edition." So there you have it. No conspiracies. No market-guided attempts to ruin the hobby we all love. Just the usual market flux that affects any company that becomes big enough to warrant the notice of market giants. Like it or not, gaming has grown up. We now play on the same field as orange juice, computer chips, and pork bellies. Kinda makes rolling the dice seem a lot headier now, eh? Hope you roll high. --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ THIS SPACE FOR RENT *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Stuart Wells [stuart@thelieingman.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:05 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - On Gaellic Hello Going back to my other mail. The picts were made up of the Brochs and the Duns. The romans called them Picts or Painted People. The irish called them the Albani or British from it's earliest form hence the Scottish kingdom of Albany. The whole area was an insane mass of warring factions until Bridei son of Maelgwn (Dragon of the Island) the king of Gwynedd united the Picts and fought Vortigern. This is why Vortigern called in the Angles, Saxons and Jutes which triggered the later conquest of England. Anyhow a good book if you are interested is The Age of Arthur by the late historian John Morris. It helps in the understanding of what creates a people. And may be useful for the grouping of native factions on posiedon. Stuart ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Gribbon To: Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 11:22 AM Subject: Re: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - On Gaellic > >Currently we've been doing shed loads of research into Scotland, Gaellic and > >the universe. > > Cool! > > >From what we gather is that there were the, Scoti Tribe or Dal > >Riada Scots, Celts of Irish descent. > > Wierd isn't it. The Scots all being Irish. Although I'd heard that the Scoti were actually an > Anglo-Saxon people who went over from England to Ireland, and then came back over to > Scotland. > > >Before this the irish originally came > >from southern Italy and Sicily (amongst other places). > > Really? Bizarre. > Although I've also read somewhere that the Celts may have originally come from pre-hellenic > Greece somewhere. > > >The people of > >Scotland of course were mainly Picts probably from Scandinavia. However > >there was also a small race the Romans called the Attecoti, or the > >originals. The Attecoti were thought to be the original inhabitants of > >Britain. > > Again, I'd also heard that the Picts were upposed by some to be the "aboriginal" peoples of > Britain. And from somewhere else, that the Pict/Celt divide was an artificial one imposed by > Roman ethnographers who believed they were 2 different peoples, when they were actually > one and the same. Who knows? > > >Liguistically the Irish language differed from Pictish and British, which > >were all derived from Celtic languages, through pronunciation. The > >differences are with the K sound in Irish is a P sound in British etc. The > >attecoti spoke a language which no one has managed to work out. > > Is this like the p-line / q-line Gaelic divide (I recall that Irish and Scots Gaelic were one type, > whereas Welsh and Manx were another)? > > >Overall the whole area was an insane hotch potch. The irish were hugely > >influntial in what becomes wales....yata yata yata. It is all very confused. > >I hope this adds to the Gallic debate. > > Well it was interesting anyway. > > Christopher Gribbon > Vision Research Laboratories > Medical Sciences Institute > University of Dundee > Dundee DD1 5EH > UK > > (01382) 344 229 > ____________________________________________________________________ > > "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to > descry the cement of the universe. > He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" > > - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Brian Betty [bbetty@glad.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 12:09 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift Reicel Kronik wrote: "I posted the following message a little while ago, but apparently it didn't reach the list. I hope this isn't redundant. Sorry if this is the second copy you've gotten." I pos follow messij lidl wil ago, bat aparenli it dint reech lis. I hop dis isat reedandan. Saree if dis iz sekan kapee yoo gat." I'd rather: Ai postit dhe falowin mesij a litl hwail agou, bat apeirentli it diden ric dhe lis. I hop dhis izen ritantan. Sari if dhis iz a secen kapi yu gat. And don wori, it's nat. ai onli gat dhis verzjen. It gets a lot easier when written in NuInklish script. For example, "dhe" looks really awkward when written d-h-e, but it's a breeze with edh, which is just a d with a "-" across the vertical bar. It's used in Vietnamese, actually. "(I also have some theories about the future of the Chinese languages, but I assume there's less interest in that on the list.)" Keneng wo hai yao tan-yi-tan. (Sannian-jian wo xuele yige xueqing zai Beijing Daxue.) "I see the following happening (meaning both that I see it happening now, and I predict that it will continue to happen up to the years that BP is concerned with):" Okay: "Perfect tenses die out. Even past tense starts to die." I see rather a *reorganization* of tenses per common creolisation systems, but perhaps 100 years isn't enough with long-lived granpas & granmas. It means that verbs aren't conjugated in the past, simplifying them markedly. It sounds really strange, but Hawai'ian Creole uses tenses just like these and that didn't take much time to develop at all. For example: ai go, yu go, he go(z), we go, dhei go. ai bingo (I went) ai wilgo (I will go) "Articles get lost altogether." Yes, but not within 200 years. Highly unlikely. "Possible loss of separate third-person singular verb forms." Yep. - Large reduction in vocabulary (many formal/informal distinctions between Latin/Germanic root words may get lost as one is chosen over the other)." Yep: without a scholastic bent, a lot of words will be lost or new ones made up. "A possible switch from subject based to topic based grammar." A little drastic for 200 years? "Possible streamlining of prepositions. (What's the difference between burning up and burning down? Not much.)" Hmm.... maybe. Prepositions are more important for languages like ours that aren't marked for case. "(Never did understand the difference between aspiration and voice.)" And you live in Taiwan?!?!?!? Zenme ne! - Monkeygod (8-0) Until we start to make a move to make a few things right you'll never see me wear a suit of white oh i'd love to wear a rainbow every day and tell the world that everything's okay but i'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back 'till things are brighter, i'm the man in black. -Johnny Cash, 1956 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Stuart Wells [stuart@thelieingman.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:08 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Sassenach The whole Highlander Lowlander thing I think goes back to the Lowlanders accepting the English when they conquered Scotland and the Highlanders fighting on. There have always been divisions between them though. Lowlanders are partially the Irish and Highlanders were pretty much Picts. The old tribal rivalry again. Stuart *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Rachel Kronick [rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:34 AM To: BP List Subject: [Fwd: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift -- Did this reach the list? Hi all! I posted the following message a little while ago, but apparently it didn't reach the list. I hope this isn't redundant. Sorry if this is the second copy you've gotten. Or, in NuInklish (using a great deal of Brian Betty's suggestions): I pos follow messij lidl wil ago, bat aparenli it dint reech lis. I hop dis isat reedandan. Saree if dis iz sekan kapee yoo gat. (Wow, looks like /Zardoz./ Except weirder.... I may not get used to this for a couple hundred years.) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:08:23 +0800 From: Rachel Kronick To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com References: <3.0.6.32.19991116095849.007a7380@glad> Brian Betty wrote: > > Jeff Barber wrote: "You ask a good question, making a realistic point about > linguistic changes in Native culture. It would have been cool/interesting, > but difficult to address this issue in the BP rules. Creating realistic > linguistic elements would have been outside Biohazard's various abilities, > and if done right (IMO) would have required a disproportionate number of > pages in the book. It would also be impractical to expect > moderators/players to actually learn linguistic rules and use them in play." > > I would be interested in discussing these issues with people as I have been > working for my own enjoyment on this issue. I'm not attempting to learn or > teach anything, but the notion intrigues me - I've been (for my own > pleasure) assuming the written standard of BP is New English - like the > half-artificial NyNorsk used in modern Scandinavia as a kind of neutral > standard. > > IMHO I was assuming a secondary levelling of stops from voice +/- to > aspirated +/- and a reduction of dipthongs / tripthongs to 'plain' vowels. > And a nice spelling reform, to boot. I work as an English teacher here in Taiwan (I know, an utterly stereotypical job -- I have an utterly unprofitable MA, it's my lot), so I have a lot of my own theories about the future of English. (I also have some theories about the future of the Chinese languages, but I assume there's less interest in that on the list.) I see the following happening (meaning both that I see it happening now, and I predict that it will continue to happen up to the years that BP is concerned with): - Perfect tenses die out. Even past tense starts to die. (How often do you use past perfect, anyway? And how many times have you heard someone use present tense to emphasize the immediacy and reality of something? "He shoots, he scores!" Eventually, I think this will become so common that it will lose all emphasis and just become a norm. Yep, tenses might just die out.) - Articles get lost altogether. - Possible loss of separate third-person singular verb forms. - Large reduction in vocabulary (many formal/informal distinctions between Latin/Germanic root words may get lost as one is chosen over the other). - A possible switch from subject based to topic based grammar. - Possible streamlining of prepositions. (What's the difference between burning up and burning down? Not much.) A lot of this is biased because of my students and my own peeves about English, but 1) my students do to a large extent represent the future 'customers' of the English language, and 2) I also see this sort of thing happening in CNN English and other widespread forms. I also strongly agree with what you say, at least what I understand of it. (Never did understand the difference between aspiration and voice.) I've toyed with the idea of trying to write some 'future poetry' or something... In my /Spheres/ campaign, there are whole genres of writing in "Mod English" (as I call it). Was this at all relevant to BP? I hope so... -- Rachel Kronick > > Anyone here understand a word of what I said? > - Monkeygod (8-0) > > My big secret > is gonna hover over your life > -Fionna Apple *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Brian Betty [bbetty@glad.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:56 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - SPOILERS for Andy's Campaign Some notes on some stuff Cheeky Monkeygod aka Prayin Peti wrote: >>SPOILERS for chris and whomever else is in Andy's campaign >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> BB wrote: "Or the worst thing - sure and have the combat drones, but then don't ever let (living) humans see them. Blip on the horizon, consistent slaughter of human outposts with those great Star Trek video memos ("It's coming back - I don't know how much longer we can las***), and then the aboriginals waste the drones out of sight of the pcs." Kai Poh axed: "This could be great stuff. But, er, what Star Trek vieo memos? What episode was this?" Just a common scenario. Cut off transmission from beleaguered outpost, raises tensions and worries. "One particularly dramatic conclusion, the one I'd probably go with: The PCs finally manage to track down..._something_ and catch a brief glimpse of it resisting the abos' "reprogramming" (probably a malfunction due to its long hibernation). Have the abos appear to be _losing_ (which will scare the crap out of the PCs...seeing abos NOT in control of a situation) and perhaps the PCs get a chance to help the abos take out the berzerk combat drone. Naturally, the abos won't stay long enough to thank the PCs...the best they might do is just knock the PCs out with some halucinogenic chemical secretions." Right. Knock 'em dead, man. - Monkeygod (8-0) Until we start to make a move to make a few things right you'll never see me wear a suit of white oh i'd love to wear a rainbow every day and tell the world that everything's okay but i'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back 'till things are brighter, i'm the man in black. -Johnny Cash, 1956 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Brian Betty [bbetty@glad.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:48 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Native Language Drift Kai Poh "Maybe take some ideas from Esperanto?" Not a chance in Hell! ... sorry. Knee-jerk reaction of a conlanger to a serious auxlang offender. Esperanto is like cardboard soaked in cat-urine to me - tastes great AND less filling. It's a classic auxlang. Auxlangs are just conlangs expressed as UNIVERSALS all in caps YOU MUST SUBMIT BECAUSE IT'S NATURAL. Whereas I make no pretense as a conlanger on my personal tastes or that there is such thing as the (IMHO idiotic) idea of a truly universal language partial to no culture. Esperanto is just more pro-European/Indo-European prejudice dressed up as internationalism made natural. Yichh, makes me ill. Speak not the name of the divvil in front of me! .. but thanks for the suggestion, anyway. Let not you think I am rude. Seriously, now. Esperanto makes me ubercranky. But I'd rather work with more natural theories of language change and the like than stick os on the end of my favorite romance words and use latin grammar simplified. I suspect colonists wouldn't have time for that kinda crap - I'm simply assuming a long-overdue spelling reform pushed by time-restricted colonists and language change caused by the classics of genetics, namely isolation of small populations and random genetic drift. Not that I think everyone spoke English as a colonist. I find it likely that English was continued to be used heavily as a common language, much as it tends to be today, and hence would tend to stick on as a common language among BP peoples. But nearly ALL BP Natives might not be native English speakers. Easily. English is used in all sorts of settings as a common language. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on how, say, native Arabic speakers from the Sudan would have prompted language shift. your cheeky monkey, - Monkeygod (8-0) Until we start to make a move to make a few things right you'll never see me wear a suit of white oh i'd love to wear a rainbow every day and tell the world that everything's okay but i'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back 'till things are brighter, i'm the man in black. -Johnny Cash, 1956 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Brian Betty [bbetty@glad.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:27 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - NuInklish, Confusing Chrises I suggested, "Let's talk about NuInklish!" C. Gibbon [agreed]. First thing - I don't understand this Chris confusion ... how very odd it is. Moving on to NuInklish - I was thinking that a couple hundred years is a nice period of time. Coupled with isolation, you have a nice opportunity for language change without drastic confusion. I was thinking of some grammatical simplification, a spelling reform, and a furthering of a common Germanic devoicing pattern. Germanic languages have historically 'devoiced' consonants over time, and that process continued in many daughter languages. Example: Common West Germanic dags 'day' > Mod. English day but High German Tag /tax/. In my own speech (New England-ish), weakening and devoicing is apparent in certain positions: intervocalic T is inditinguishable from D, for example. Budder/butter -s'all the same thing. But this isn't true of intervocalic P/B but is somewhat true of K/G. I was thinking that this might be a nice change to grab hold of. Essentially, I posit that in NuInklish, in intervocalic position stops are all semivoiced and are marked as K, G, P. This would not sound much different to moi except for P/B. There are no doubled consonants in NuInklish (we may write them twice in modern English, but we don't say them, as opposed to languages like Italian "posso" /pos-so/). That second t in butter is redundant; it is used to tell the reader that the preceeding VOWEL is short, but doesn't matter for the consonant. (I'll explain vowels below.) In other positions, the old unvoiced consonants are marked by aspiration, not by voice. This isn't different from modern English, but we think of the difference as being voice +/- and NuInklish thinks of it as being aspiration +/-. Aspiration (puff of air) is marked by h or by ', depending on romanisation. (You didn't think I'd neglect a Native alphabet, didja? In Native writing, these sounds have symbols borrowed from ancient Greek (t'eeta, k'i, p'i, aka "theta," "chi," and "phi," restored to their original function!) Example: to putt is "thu phat" or "t'u p'at". My name is Brian Betty, so in NuInklish it'd be Prayin Peti. If my last name were Petty, I'd be Prayin Pheti. Problem letters for writing in email are thorn and edh: these were used in Old English and other old Germanic languages and are still used in Icelandic and others. Thorn is th as in that word. It looks like a lower-case p whose vertical stem extends upwards; it is frequently mistaken for y when handwritten by moderns, hence the irritating penchant for "Ye Olde" in recreation villages (it's just "the old" written with a thorn). It is voiceless. NuInklish vowels are spelled according to 'Continental values,' as they were once called: a as in sat is ae (greek eeta "eta"): saet. a as in Mary is aeae: maeaeri. (Most English speakers do not distinguish this sound.) a as in ache: eik a as in putt is simply a: pat. o as in pot is aa: paat. o as in poke is o: pok ou as in loud: lawd aw as in awe is oo (oomikron): saw - soo (looks less silly when you write it with an omicron) i as in sick: sik i as in I: ai e as in said: sed ee as in greek: griik u as in put, look: put, luk o as in so: sou oo as in moon: muun That's my starting point. These rather drastic changes were made to simplify educational issues among colonists, but they must seem very odd to moderns like ourselves. I have taken my specific examples from my own dialect, but I don't pretend that American English is the basics. Maybe there were bucketloads of Aussies and Suth'ners, and vowels got all confusing before simplifying. Maybe the dialect lost all Rs as in modern dialects derived from East Anglian English, ie. the old US colonies and AU/NZ. That might mean words like might are /moit/ or even /mout/. I was also thinking that it might be fun to assume BP-nuinklish has, due to it's international character, lost the old distinction of short v. long vowels: Greek > grik and lick > lik, both pronounced "eek." Look > luk and gadzook > gatsuk are both "ook." This may seem radical, but it ain't. A similar process is happening in New Zealand and Australia: can anyone explain from firsthand knowledge? I'd love thoughts. Anyone? - Monkeygod (8-0) Until we start to make a move to make a few things right you'll never see me wear a suit of white oh i'd love to wear a rainbow every day and tell the world that everything's okay but i'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back 'till things are brighter, i'm the man in black. -Johnny Cash, 1956 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 5:28 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gaelic >Just an ignorant Malaysian, but I heard somewhere that 'sassenach' means >'lowland barbarian' or something like that. It's what highlanders called >everybody else, including other Scotsmen who didn't live in the highlands. >Is this correct? Pretty much, yes! Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 5:23 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - On Gaellic >Currently we've been doing shed loads of research into Scotland, Gaellic and >the universe. Cool! >From what we gather is that there were the, Scoti Tribe or Dal >Riada Scots, Celts of Irish descent. Wierd isn't it. The Scots all being Irish. Although I'd heard that the Scoti were actually an Anglo-Saxon people who went over from England to Ireland, and then came back over to Scotland. >Before this the irish originally came >from southern Italy and Sicily (amongst other places). Really? Bizarre. Although I've also read somewhere that the Celts may have originally come from pre-hellenic Greece somewhere. >The people of >Scotland of course were mainly Picts probably from Scandinavia. However >there was also a small race the Romans called the Attecoti, or the >originals. The Attecoti were thought to be the original inhabitants of >Britain. Again, I'd also heard that the Picts were upposed by some to be the "aboriginal" peoples of Britain. And from somewhere else, that the Pict/Celt divide was an artificial one imposed by Roman ethnographers who believed they were 2 different peoples, when they were actually one and the same. Who knows? >Liguistically the Irish language differed from Pictish and British, which >were all derived from Celtic languages, through pronunciation. The >differences are with the K sound in Irish is a P sound in British etc. The >attecoti spoke a language which no one has managed to work out. Is this like the p-line / q-line Gaelic divide (I recall that Irish and Scots Gaelic were one type, whereas Welsh and Manx were another)? >Overall the whole area was an insane hotch potch. The irish were hugely >influntial in what becomes wales....yata yata yata. It is all very confused. >I hope this adds to the Gallic debate. Well it was interesting anyway. Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 5:16 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Gaelic >> Yes - "uisge mhath" (pronounced "whiske vah") which *is* "whiskey" > >I thought it was "uisce bheatha"... (at least, that's what I was taught it >was... and it's what I wrote in some of the song lyrics for my potential >celt band). I've read both, and I honestly don't know which it should be. Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Christopher Gribbon [c.gribbon@dundee.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 5:15 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - (off) On languages and chimanzees >Sumpin' is wacky with the messages I'm getting - I apologise for confusion, >but I quoted the message I read as is. Can anyone tell me who wrote that? > >"I've also heard different things about the origin of Gaelic. As far as I >am aware, it's a Germanic language that the british Celts picked up in >southern germany before heading on to colonise the british isles. It >largely died out in mainland Europe (even the other Celtic peoples like the >Gauls didn't speak it). In fact, the Celts in Europe weren't really an >ethnic type as such, but more of a technological revolution (namely iron >production)." That one *was* me. This one: Chris wrote: "By the way, Gaelic is what some linguists are currently thinking is the direct descendent of the original indo-european language (not that it's saying very much... they used to think that German and Nordic were the originators, too)." wasn't, however. >And that's not the end of it. Study Akkadian and you need to study >Sumerian, Elamite, Hittite, and a dozen other languages that influenced its >grammar and vocabulary. Study Hebrew and you do the same, adding on >Akkadian and others. Study French and should study Low Franconian >("Frankish"), Latin/Romance, Celtic languages, and others, all of which had >significant effects on French. Study Finnish and you find it has borrowed >words from Iranian (yep.), Old High German, Old Norse, Russian, and even >English, and its grammar shows areal relationships with North Germanic >("Scandinavian"). I guess knowing all this makes you a cunning linguist ;-) >Anyway, enough about English. Let's talk about NuInklish! Absolutley. I'm getting embarassed by how little I know... Christopher Gribbon Vision Research Laboratories Medical Sciences Institute University of Dundee Dundee DD1 5EH UK (01382) 344 229 ____________________________________________________________________ "A scientist is meant to be disinterested, pure; his ambition merely to descry the cement of the universe. He isn't meant to use it to start laying his own patio!" - WILL SELF, The Quantity Theory of Insanity *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 12:37 AM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Website EndersWAR1@aol.com asked: ><< See Dave Klegman's site >> >and the URL is...... http://students.uts.ohio-state.edu/klegman.1 He's got various and sundry good stuff on his site; BP fans will want to go to his Profesional Casualties page first. It also (ahem) has a lot of my BP house rules and fanfic on it. Kai Poh Malaysian Lagomorph ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Andy Wills [andywills@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 11:08 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Planet Chat BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: > > Hey All, > > There has been some talk about a Blue Planet discussion in the newly formed > Prosperity Station Yahoo club chatroom. I do not really have a topic or > agenda in mind, but an open Q&A session might be a fun. I was thinking maybe > this Sunday, 11/21, 6-8pm central time. I think that it's a good idea, except that I will be out of town until midnight central time, that day. Sigh...miss the two chats I'd really like to attend(the other was Greg Porter's pyramid chat yesterday). Some other time. I still like the idea. I'd be there if I could. > What do you think? > > Jeff Barber > Biohazard Games -Andy *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Auberon [jskln1@uas.alaska.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 11:25 PM To: blue_planet@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Blue Planet Chat BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: > > There has been some talk about a Blue Planet discussion in the newly formed > Prosperity Station Yahoo club chatroom. I do not really have a topic or > agenda in mind, but an open Q&A session might be a fun. I was thinking maybe > this Sunday, 11/21, 6-8pm central time. Sounds good to me! Note to the linguists: Perhaps it happened after my brain turned to mush yesterday, but has the dismissal of pronouns, as above (no "it"), been discussed? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.