From: stevie [Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:06 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology >cell fusion would work much, much easier than with cats. Humans and chimps >(but not gorillas..) even have the same chromosome number. Humans and >Silvas might still interbreed too, or might not (or might produce sterile >offspring). This is not quite correct. Chimps actually have 48 chromosomes. The 2 more seem to be somewhat "fused" in the human genetic makeup. Anyway. As far as I am concerned, I didn't view the hybrids as "humans with isolated modifications". either. They are what they are: Genetic mixtures of human and animal DNA e.g. something new (any comments from the folks of Biohazard Games here?) Ciao, Stephan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Suvi Ylioja [suelyl@utu.fi] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:44 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology > On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 BIOHZD@aol.com wrote: Hi! Thanks for responding! Uh oh, another huge post.. going into some more detail on hybrids, cyber/biotech and ecology. Should probably have cut this into more manageable chunks, brace yourselves.. > I really don't like the cyber/biotech in BP (or, at least the minimal > information approach that makes it just a special effect). > > >>>>I don't track - as far as RPGs go, there is a lot more detail in the > descriptions of BP tech than in most games. Given the size of the thing, > including anymore in the first book was...well..impossible ; (. Fluid Mechanics is going to be released real soon, right? :) Lots of detail there may be, but detail is not what I need. Principles are more useful, I can work out the details myself (and with the help of some more tech-oriented friends :). What I can't figure out is what are the limits of the level of technology currently available in the BP universe and/or the level of commonly available technology. For example vacuum vines are apparently in common use by the Belters. A plant that grows in vacuum? Near absolute zero? With very limited available nutrients? This sounds like extreme hypertech to me. *(...now maybe if you first grew the plant under more ideal conditions and afterwards used it to produce oxygen and recycle co-2 _inside_ a dome, powered by sunlight and the nutrients of the asteroid rock... even then one must remember that out there in the belt the Sun's energy isn't anything like we Earth dwellers are used to... and the crust to the asteroid would probably have to be broken and ground up a bit. Just sticking this weed on a cold rock out there in hard vacuum and expecting it to grow is past silly...) (/ACCESS DENIED) Another example: the experimental black Martian plant. A black plant that does not suffer from overheating or dehydration on a planet with a very thin atmosphere. And it's polymorphic. And it spreads fast. Why not use something that doesn't attempt to be so super-efficient? Something like a lichen would make more sense. Lichens have very minimal energy and nutrient requirements (they grow even on Antarctica). On the other hand they grow very slow. (/ACCESS ENABLED) The thing with bioware is that most things one tries to improve are the result of some four billion years of evolution. And the general principle in adaptation is that one can't have everything. So tinkering with biological designs is going to cost, and the new stuff will probably need lots of maintenance. BP cyberware works principally with myo-lecs, right? (Maybe with additional rechargeable batterys, too?). And myo-lecs are muscles modified to produce current. Ok so far. But cyberlimbs are heavier than than the equivalent biological bits, and yet thay grant strength and agility bonuses, in other words they work better that the real thing. What this sounds like to me is that cyberlimbs add a level of energy transfer (chemical power - current - mechanical power), and according to the laws of thermodynamics usable energy will be lost as heat in that transfer. Why would cyberlimbs still be more efficient than the biological stuff? Much of the cyber/bioware has ridiculously short "transformation times" too. I bet the damage the implanting operations does heals in that time, but how long does learning to use your brand-new extra sense going to take, when your brain doesn't have an area that would process the new information? How, exactly, would an implanted translation computer work? *(you press the button and it goes?) > Hybrids aren't believable either > > >>>> Why so? (Your answer could be useful in their further development). > (Cats and Silvas aren't human IMHO, but what are they then? The sourcebook > isn't very clear on that. > > >>>>They are enhanced humans, with only basic and isolated physical > modifications. The infant hybrid psyche is purely human, and any deviation > from human norms is based on the consequences of the child's physical > characteristics and socialization. "The rudimentary state of genetic engineering at the time [2065] made it easier to simply blend together genes from various species rather than attempt to design an entirely original being." This results in "basic and isolated physical modifications"?!? Cats... the source material strongly points in the direction that genetic material from domestic cats was used (fur with various patterns, slit pupils). Now, there is no "ear" gene in humans that can simply be replaced with the equivalent "pointy cat ear" gene. Even if there had been, the human skull forms earholes in places where cat-size, mobile ears are not very handy. Also, except for rare cases, humans don't have the musculature or nerves required to move their ears. The same problems apply for the rest of the Cats' modifications. This, in my opinion, makes creating viable cat/human hybrids by simple gene transfer extremely unlikely. Perhaps slightly more likely would have been to use the technique of cell fusion (and this is what I had been assuming..) where 2 haploid cells from the two species had been artificially fused and made to start development. The problem with this is also that the chromosome numbers of humans and cats are different, and are "mismatched". Putting two half-sets of the chromosomes of the two species in the same cell would result in confusion. If this could be gotten over (dunno how...) the result would be, yes, a hybrid of human and cat genomes, and would, most likely, have ceased development very soon and perished. Now add a huge dose of luck, make the process automatic as far as possible and repeat billions of times. The mix of cat/human could be varied too by making a haploid cell out of the original cell resulting from the fusion and fusing that with another cell. This process just _perhaps_ might produce something viable. Then the unfortunate creature could be cloned, and the clones could be varied by random mutation (in most cases would result in something unusable..) and maybe gene transfer. So the resulting Cats would have truly mixed genes, with perhaps a certain randomness in what feature of the original species is expressed. This might explain why Cats have fur (I can't imagine why they would have fur by design, no point in a super-soldier having fur). Cats would be unable to interbreed with any other species. The extraordinary circumstances of their creation mean that their chromosome number is likely to be different from that of either humans or cats. Silvas are ok, somewhat fewer problems really there. The above refers only to the Cats. After all humans and great apes are very similar, so cell fusion would work much, much easier than with cats. Humans and chimps (but not gorillas..) even have the same chromosome number. Humans and Silvas might still interbreed too, or might not (or might produce sterile offspring). > One of my primary interests is biology, and the BP sourcebook provides > woefully inadequate information > > >>>>Ah...well...I wouldn't go that far. As RPGs go we crammed in an aweful > lot. I mean BP is a game, not an encyclopedia... Incidentally, when is the Encyclopaedia Poseidonica's release date? :). I wouldn't really call the three pages on unique habitats and the 25 species descriptions (with plenty of white space on the pages too!) an awful lot. Better than most RPGs, granted. But most RPG products suck. Using the 25 pages by putting in 24 pages on biodiversity and 1 page crammed with sample stats would be a better use of the space. IMHO. > >>>>Not to worry. The sourcebook Survey (working title only) will have more > hard science on Poseidon that you can shake a whollop fish spine at. Great! > *Why is fast fungus such an effective decomposer of bioplastic? > > >>>>Because bioplastic is an organic polymer and fast fungus is really hungry > ; ). Actually, the normally durable and semi-inert material is readily reduced > to various monomers by uniquely reactive fast fungus enzymes. This is the "how" of it, not the "why". Why would they have such a, ahem, uniquely reactive enzyme? Is a bioplastic-like material found in Poseidon lifeforms? If so, it would have merited a mention in the source material.. Decomposing is a specialist business... a fungus that specializes in a certain substance is going to outcompete a generalist on it's growth medium, because maintaining that variety of reactive enzymes is going to have a higher metabolic cost that just producing fewer enzymes tailored to the substance. Hence my doubt in plastic-eating fast fungi (unless the substance would indeed be found in some organism on Poseidon). Is there a "plastic analog", or some such, to be found in the biochemical structure of the Poseidon wildlife? > *How similar is the biochemistry of Poseidon life to that of Earth? > > >>>>In most cases, it is almost interchangeable. As we have alluded to in the > main book, the genetic basis of life on both Earth and Podeidon are the same. > Makes ya go hmmmm? ; ) Makes me go "urrgh", actually. Similarity in genetic basis doth not a similarity in biochemistry make. The Creators may have dabbled with life on both planets, but I'm not buying the idea of them meddling with evolution, too. Evolution is biochemical in the end. > Would humans be violently allergic to some group of species? > > >>>>YES! Good. Makes me very happy, that! Dolphins excetera too, I'll bet. Having a fin go into allergic shock is going to make players so happy too... :) "*Achoo!* Dey dever said adything aboud dis in Ibbigration, and dow I don'd have de scrip for de redurn trip. I'm godda indenture to a deep-mining operadion and hobe I don'd have da eat any fish dere, 'cos dey give be a derrible rash." > How susceptible are humans to nerve toxins in Poseidon life? > > >>>>OW! This red bug-thing just stu....[croak]. This requires that humans have neurotransmitter receptors that are blocked by the nerve toxin. Hmm.. most animals on Earth use acetylcholine as a neurotransmitter at least in some of their nerves... Although some more randomness might be fun. :) "Ever wonder why we can swim through the tentacles of this blimp species, but all around fish die by the hundreds?" "Nah." or "Hey, it's ok, I've seen the stick monkeys eat these, they're *munch* edible...[croak]" > *Why can parasites from Poseidon infect humans? > > >>>>Generalized parasites can because of the similiar biochemistry. Many > parasites however are host-species specific and would be unable to survive in > other species. Parasiting is highly specialized activity, and there's nothing remotely human on Poseidon. I still hold with the biochemistry differences.. > *How have the animals introduced by humans affected the ecology of Poseidon? > hit or miss. Most ecologists agree Poseidon's ecology is too aggressive for > most Earth species to pose a competative threat. I agree, although the term "aggressive ecology" rubs me the wrong way.. how can any ecology be more savage than another? Same rules of "survival of the fittest".. Make that "Poseidon lifeforms are uniquely adapted to their environment, and conditions are sufficiently different that Earth lifeforms have a severe disadvantage." For the same reason lifeforms from Poseidon shouldn't do too well on Earth (but with the Earth in 2199 being so messed up, anything could happen). The aspect of Poseidon that fascinates me, when it comes to ecological matters, is the atmosphere/sea divide and the isolation of the terrestrial environments. I'd have thought that the terrestrial habitats of especially the smaller islands might have problems with rats and roaches... Island ecosystems are often fragile, and Poseidon has those in abundance. Here's where my earlier question on dispersal and hurricane survival becomes appropriate. Are the islands repeatedly colonized by travelling organisms adapted to such an existance, so that most islands have a fairly uniform ecology. Or are species dispersed to islands at random, undergoing an adaptive radiation? I also like the idea of fish ranching. I happened to see a report on an experiment using fish recently, where the fish were cold-branded for later identification. It made me immediately think of natives branding their fish schools, and gangs of dolphin fish rustlers capturing the fish and trying to modify the old brands. A real Old West frontier feel... > *What are the main groups in the diversity of life on Poseidon? > > >>>>Evolutionary biologists continue to propose classification schemes, and > endlessly debate the research. We hope there will be a concensus before Survey > goes to press ; ). Heh. Need a collaborator? Did I mention I also do illustrations? ;) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yu Shuwei "Why anything? Because everything." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< *(comments with * by another biologist/SciFi-gamemaster) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: stevie [Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:14 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - [Blue Planet] - Transbeings Is the Transhuman package available to humans only or is it available to Hybrids and Cetaceans too? I also wondered whether the immunological symbiont halves the healing time of Transhumans too. If so, they would heal wounds in 1/4 the time a normal, not enhanced human would need. Also, something to think about: Most well situated people already have their children being Transhuman (sort of Gattaca). This is also available as a gene-therapy treatment. I would bet that many people would like to have it (and even get into debts only to have this advantage, too). I would say that in another 50 to 100 years (when the treatment is cheaper due to refinement and better understanding of Long John), there wouldn't be very much "normal" humans or hybrids left. (I would also say that the immunulogical symbiont is standard then, financed by health plans - it is cheaper to spend a few thousand once and then don't have to worry about the people getting sick at all) Any opinions? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kevin C. Carpenter [kccarpenter@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:37 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Social Effects of Biomods I can see the posibility of some Incorporates subsidizing the implants, since it would make sense in the long run. It might not be that common among other national governments, since most of them are weak and busy trying to consolodate their holdings. As far as the 'phasing out' of normal people, I'd think you'd end up with a smaller upper class of (rich, Incorporate) genetically perfect people with a large underclass of normal people. - Kevin C. Carpenter I would bet that many people would like to have it >(and even get into debts only to have this advantage, too). I would say that >in another 50 to 100 years (when the treatment is cheaper due to refinement >and better understanding of Long John), there wouldn't be very much "normal" >humans or hybrids left. (I would also say that the immunulogical symbiont is >standard then, financed by health plans - it is cheaper to spend a few >thousand once and then don't have to worry about the people getting sick at >all) > >Any opinions? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Blair A. Monroe [bmonroe@mailer.fsu.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:48 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - [Blue Planet] - Transbeings At 06:14 PM 12/17/98 +0100, you wrote: >Is the Transhuman package available to humans only or is it available to >Hybrids and Cetaceans too? > I ahve been assuming it was...perhaps at a higher expense due to having to adjust it to a "non-human" biochemistry. >I also wondered whether the immunological symbiont halves the healing time >of Transhumans too. If so, they would heal wounds in 1/4 the time a normal, >not enhanced human would need. > I think Transhumans are considered to already have the immunological symbiot and therefore would get no benefit from having it done to them again. -- Blair ------ Blair A. Monroe Web Developer / Information Professional / Gamemaster E-mail: bmonroe@mailer.fsu.edu http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Adam Lewis [adamswork@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:52 AM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - [Blue Planet] - Transbeings ---stevie wrote: > I would say that in another 50 to 100 years (when the treatment is > cheaper due to refinement and better understanding of Long John), > there wouldn't be very much "normal" humans or hybrids left. Good point. Maybe if you're playing in a setting that is 50-100 years past the BP timeline you could select being a "normal" human as a disadvantage. == AdamL "A cat almost always blinks when you whack it in the head with a ballpean hammer." _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:39 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology >Much of the cyber/bioware has ridiculously short "transformation times" too. I bet the damage the implanting operations does heals in that time, but how long does learning to use your brand-new extra sense going to take, when your brain doesn't have an area that would process the new information? How, exactly, would an implanted translation computer work? *(you press the button and it goes?)< The representation of alien sensory information isn't a problem. We can't perceive IR emissions or the internal structure of an object just by looking at it, but we have technologies that can sense and translate that information for us (IR vision, ultrasound). IR eyes would probably "see" just like a normal eye sees through IR goggles, with false color representations of varying temperatures. >Cats... the source material strongly points in the direction that genetic material from domestic cats was used (fur with various patterns, slit pupils). Now, there is no "ear" gene in humans that can simply be replaced with the equivalent "pointy cat ear" gene. Even if there had been, the human skull forms earholes in places where cat-size, mobile ears are not very handy. Also, except for rare cases, humans don't have the musculature or nerves required to move their ears. The same problems apply for the rest of the Cats' modifications.< Modifying the cartilage and musculature in the external ear and scalp could produce such a structure on a human, although it would have to stick out noticeably from the skull rather than hugging it like a normal ear. (Think Yoda.) This would be a matter of tinkering with the human DNA, not infusing cat DNA, but BP did not completely exclude the possibility of direct modification. It simply said mixing the genetic codes was easier and therefore used more. >This might explain why Cats have fur (I can't imagine why they would have fur by design, no point in a super-soldier having fur). Cats would be unable to interbreed with any other species. The extraordinary circumstances of their creation mean that their chromosome number is likely to be different from that of either humans or cats.< Arctic/Winter/Mountain combat. Insulated clothing tends to impede mobility, which in a firefight can be deadly. A soldier whose insulation grows from his skin and does not decrease mobility would be all the more deadly. The only problem I see with fur on a hybrid is sweating. Felines don't sweat; they pant to release excess body heat. If a Cat were to sweat, its fur would be a constant mess of damp, knotted tangles. Probably annoying, if not a bit painful. >Makes me go "urrgh", actually. Similarity in genetic basis doth not a similarity in biochemistry make. The Creators may have dabbled with life on both planets, but I'm not buying the idea of them meddling with evolution, too. Evolution is biochemical in the end.< Are you talking about levo and dextro isomers here? If the nucleic acids are the same, then that leaves, what, proteins, carbohydrates, and lipids as the other major building blocks of life. If they're also the same, then Earth organisms can metabolise Poseidon organisms, and vice versa. If some of them aren't, we suddenly have a problem with nutrient deficiencies, and the Natives are suddenly a bit worse off. >I agree, although the term "aggressive ecology" rubs me the wrong way.. how can any ecology be more savage than another? Same rules of "survival of the fittest".. < Read the War Against the Chtorr series. >> *What are the main groups in the diversity of life on Poseidon? >> >> >>>>Evolutionary biologists continue to propose classification schemes, and endlessly debate the research. We hope there will be a concensus before Survey goes to press ; ). This is something I've always wondered about any sci-fi setting. How do you modify taxonomic nomenclature to handle extraterrestrial species? The best (and simplest) idea I've been able to come up with is: Planet / Kingdom / Phylum or Division / Class / Order / Family / Genus / Species For example: Terra Animalia Chordata Mammalia Primates Hominidae Homo sapiens (humans, of course) Poseidonae Animalia Chordata Mammaloida Fictusimia Simiasimila ululatus (stick monkeys) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:51 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Social Effects of Biomods "As far as the 'phasing out' of normal people, I'd think you'd end up with a smaller upper class of (rich, Incorporate) genetically perfect people with a large underclass of normal people." If it dies, it isn't perfect. Longevity treatments may extend the human lifespan indefinitely, but they can't prevent fatal mishaps. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kevin C. Carpenter [kccarpenter@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 3:04 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Social Effects of Biomods I wasn't actually referring to people living forever, but people who were substantially healthier, maybe even smarter and faster. When I say genetically perfect, I obviously don't mean they're immune to getting hit by a car. They would simply be immune to most, if not all 'natural' (biological) causes of death. This was of course in reply to the concept of the long-term effects of biomods on civlization. I don't think anyone suggested that it would create immortals, just a genetically-advantaged upper class. - Kevin C. Carpenter >"As far as the 'phasing out' of normal people, I'd think you'd end up >with a smaller upper class of (rich, Incorporate) genetically perfect people >with a large underclass of normal people." > >If it dies, it isn't perfect. Longevity treatments may extend the human >lifespan indefinitely, but they can't prevent fatal mishaps. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Suvi Ylioja [suelyl@utu.fi] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 3:50 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, stevie wrote: > This is not quite correct. Chimps actually have 48 chromosomes. The 2 more > seem to be somewhat "fused" in the human genetic makeup. Thanks for the correction. -- Yu Shuwei *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:53 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Social Effects of Biomods Consider that many people equate Long John with immortality, and that there are a lot of megalomaniacs who'd probably develop a God complex after a few decades of longevity treatments. Also, there'd be other odd psychological effects from living past the "normal" human lifespan. Read "Holy Fire" by Bruce Sterling for a glimpes into a near-future geriatric society. (Good book. Lot's of interesting generational dialogue.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: stevie [Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:08 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology >Arctic/Winter/Mountain combat. Insulated clothing tends to impede mobility, >which in a firefight can be deadly. A soldier whose insulation grows from >his skin and does not decrease mobility would be all the more deadly. The >only problem I see with fur on a hybrid is sweating. Felines don't sweat; >they pant to release excess body heat. If a Cat were to sweat, its fur would >be a constant mess of damp, knotted tangles. Probably annoying, if not a bit >painful. Hmm. Apes sweat. And Silvas definitely have fur (even if somewhat sparse) Ciao, Stephan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: stevie [Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:10 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - [Blue Planet] - Transbeings >I ahve been assuming it was...perhaps at a higher expense due to having to >adjust it to a "non-human" biochemistry. The usual +50% ? >I think Transhumans are considered to already have the immunological >symbiot and therefore would get no benefit from having it done to them again. Good point. So they don't become _too_ powerful. Besides, that is one of the things I like in Blue Planet: Characters aren't artificially balanced (as in GURPS for example). Munchkinism is prevented by the extremly lethal combat system... (smiling deviously) Ciao, Stephan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Suvi Ylioja [suelyl@utu.fi] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:19 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Robert P. Stefko wrote: > The representation of alien sensory information isn't a problem. We can't > perceive IR emissions or the internal structure of an object just by looking > at it, but we have technologies that can sense and translate that > information for us (IR vision, ultrasound). IR eyes would probably "see" > just like a normal eye sees through IR goggles, with false color > representations of varying temperatures. Does this mean having an implanted computer process the input and a sort of internal hud display projecting it superimposed on the normal field of vision. That would make it just a normal pair of ir goggles, just built in... don't you think that would interfere with one's normal vision? IR at least is fairly straigtforward, what about the portrayal of 360 degree radar (three-dimensional too), or learning to use bioware sonar in three weeks? > Arctic/Winter/Mountain combat. Insulated clothing tends to impede mobility, > which in a firefight can be deadly. A soldier whose insulation grows from > his skin and does not decrease mobility would be all the more deadly. The > only problem I see with fur on a hybrid is sweating. Felines don't sweat; > they pant to release excess body heat. If a Cat were to sweat, its fur would > be a constant mess of damp, knotted tangles. Probably annoying, if not a bit > painful. Wasn't Cat fur said to be rather thin? Also, being wounded may present problems, with the fur having to be shaved off for treatment. Carrying clothes and equipment might also be uncomfortable (this depends on how fuzzy hybrids are), and swimming difficult with that soaked fur. Cats (domestic that is) also cool down by licking their coats, I don't think hybrids would be happy doing it either to cool down or to keep their coat clean. I'll bet a hybrid always carries a brush and some coat-cleaning spray... A nice tabby pattern would be good camouflage in the woods though. I've always envisioned both types of hybrids as subtropical commando troops. Fur protects from sunburn too. > Are you talking about levo and dextro isomers here? If the nucleic acids are > the same, then that leaves, what, proteins, carbohydrates, and lipids as the > other major building blocks of life. If they're also the same, then Earth > organisms can metabolise Poseidon organisms, and vice versa. If some of them > aren't, we suddenly have a problem with nutrient deficiencies, and the > Natives are suddenly a bit worse off. I'm assuming isomers aren't a problem. But everything having the same enzymes/receptors/membrane proteins/neurotransmitters is not very believable. Even Earth lifeforms have plenty of variation in this regard, and Poseidon life is likely to have some unique biochemical approaches. The action of such things as neurotoxins depend on the functioning of these, and strange membrane proteins might cause rather unpleasant immune responses. Some elements might also be in short supply, and some be found in superabundance. I don't think eating creatures with, for example, an abundance of copper-based pigments in their blood is going to be very healthy. Starches, lipids, most carbohydrates probably could fairly reasonably be assumed to be common to the lifeforms of both planets, taking care of basic energy intake. But what about vitamins and the like? Let's assume, for example, that vitamin C is a totally unknown substance on Poseidon... the natives had better have brought along some Hippophaë (hawthorn?) seeds. Of course, a C-vitamin-producing biomod probably wouldn't be too hard to do. I wouldn't find it at all unthinkable that Poseidon life uses either more or less amino acids. If less, then deficiency might be common. If more...dunno really. Any biochemists on the list? Is ingesting strange amino acids likely to cause problems? > Read the War Against the Chtorr series. Indeed. I have. Urrgh. > Planet / Kingdom / Phylum or Division / Class / Order / Family / Genus / > Species Yeah, this is a functional and straightforward way of doing it. For short, one could use Planet / Genus / Species. Could perhaps include Domain in the long version? By the way, has anything been said about photosynthesis pigments on Poseidon? Straightforward green chlorophyll-a? Possibly red/brown-yellow pigments for things growing in deeper water? Or something weirder? -- Yu Shuwei *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jason A Werner [c577200@showme.missouri.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:49 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - [Blue Planet] - Transbeings stevie wrote: > (I would also say that the immunulogical symbiont is > standard then, financed by health plans - it is cheaper to spend a few > thousand once and then don't have to worry about the people getting sick at > all) > > Any opinions? Yeah...don't have much experience with health insurance in the United States, do you? Actually, based on your domain name, I wouldn't expect you to. Count yourself among the fortunate. HMO's tend to be very good about paying for things like vaccines for little kids. But when it comes to things like an expensive colonoscopy for your seventy-three year old grandmother that could keep her from developing an inoperable colon cancer and maybe let her live to be nintey-three, forget it. It's cheaper to let 'em die than hope they'll live long enough to pay it back in premiums. It's my experience that, if the preventative treatment is more than about $250 to $500, nobody wants to pay for it, regardless of the relative years of life at stake. -Jason Werner Biohazard Games ------------------------------------------------ I lacked the courage to investigate the weaknesses of the wicked, because I discovered they are the same as the weaknesses of the saintly. - Wm. of Baskerville -------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Kevin C. Carpenter [kccarpenter@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:48 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - Longevity I agree completely. People with hundreds of years under their belts would most likely be severely conservative elements within society and might even come to hate/fear all the 'young' people, and vice versa. Sounds like a good book by the way, I'll have to pick it up - Kevin C. Carpenter >Consider that many people equate Long John with immortality, and that there >are a lot of megalomaniacs who'd probably develop a God complex after a few >decades of longevity treatments. Also, there'd be other odd psychological >effects from living past the "normal" human lifespan. Read "Holy Fire" by >Bruce Sterling for a glimpes into a near-future geriatric society. (Good >book. Lot's of interesting generational dialogue.) > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Jason A Werner [c577200@showme.missouri.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:22 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology Okay. Gonna do my best here. If I stray from gospel, please feel free to slap me into place, Jeff. Suvi Ylioja wrote: > For example vacuum vines are apparently in common use by the Belters. A > plant that grows in vacuum? Near absolute zero? With very limited > available nutrients? This sounds like extreme hypertech to me. Well, the vacuum part is easy. Lots of plants produce a waxy outercoat that can reduce water loss. And I'd think that vegitable fibers would do a better job of resisting the pressure differential than the relatively flimsy human skin (okay, flimsy in some spots, not so much in other spots). > The thing with bioware is that most things one tries to improve are the > result of some four billion years of evolution. And the general principle > in adaptation is that one can't have everything. So tinkering with > biological designs is going to cost, and the new stuff will probably need > lots of maintenance. One of the reasons "you can't have everything" is that the organism has to spend a certain amount of energy on just surviving. For organisms in the wild, this tends to be more than what you and I are required to expend. So, if you don't have to blow all those calories on hunting down a furry whatzit, it's a lot easier to spend them on extras. > This results in "basic and isolated physical modifications"?!? Sure. It's not like you're going in and altering neuronal development routes or changing the pathways for cholesterol manufacturing or oxidative phosphorylation. You're changing things like the number and frequency response of rods and cones in the retina, shape of the long bones in the arms and legs, density of collagen fibrils in tendons and ligaments, dimensions of the eye and bony orbit, that sort of thing. Those are easy. Most really are structural. > Cats... the source material strongly points in the direction that > genetic material from domestic cats was used (fur with various patterns, > slit pupils). Uh...I actually think Jeff was hoping for the great cats, but I know my two cats have been known to kick the crap out of each other now and then. > Now, there is no "ear" gene in humans that can simply be > replaced with the equivalent "pointy cat ear" gene. No, you're right. But there is a "make ear grow here" gene. And it can be turned off. > Even if there had > been, the human skull forms earholes in places where cat-size, mobile > ears are not very handy. Also, except for rare cases, humans don't have > the musculature or nerves required to move their ears. The same problems > apply for the rest of the Cats' modifications. Actually, the nerves are there. The great auricular and (I think) posterior auricular nerves are part of the (again, I think) cervical plexus, and they go right by there. But you're right, there isn't much in the way of muscles for moving them. However, add the genes for kitty ears, and I bet you can add the ones for kitty ear muscles. We've actually spent quite a bit of time hashing over how we want the whole hybrid genetics thing to happen, and I think we've about got it. Look for good stuff in the upcomming "Undercurrents" specials issue. > Cats would be unable to interbreed with any other species. The > extraordinary circumstances of their creation mean that their chromosome > number is likely to be different from that of either humans or cats. Heh...great minds and all that... > Using the 25 pages by putting in 24 pages on > biodiversity and 1 page crammed with sample stats would be a better use of > the space. IMHO. Not quite sure what you mean, here. Seems to me that a discussion of the unique biotia of Poseidon _is_ a discussion of biodiversity, since the organisms that inhabit any given biome are necessarily shaped by it. > > *Why is fast fungus such an effective decomposer of bioplastic? > > > > >>>>Because bioplastic is an organic polymer and fast fungus is really hungry > > ; ). Actually, the normally durable and semi-inert material is readily reduced > > to various monomers by uniquely reactive fast fungus enzymes. > > This is the "how" of it, not the "why". Why would they have such a, ahem, > uniquely reactive enzyme? Same reason you and I have enzymes called disaccharidases. You need them to absorb complex sugars. If you're short on lactase, milk and cheese makes you feel like crap, since you can't digest them. So, you've got a fungus that secretes an enzyme that degrades biopolymers (equivalents might be the sugar polymers used to make chitin in insects or fibers in plants) and then digests the monomers. > Is a bioplastic-like material found > in Poseidon lifeforms? If so, it would have merited a mention in the > source material.. Again, we can't put _everything_ in the sourcebook, or you really would have had to buy an encyclopedia. And cool as the idea sounds, I don't know many gamers that are gonna run out and buy a 20 volume hard-bound set. Oh, god...the editing job. No more layouts! No More Layouts!....er, sorry. Walls started closing in on me, again. > This requires that humans have neurotransmitter receptors that are blocked > by the nerve toxin. Hmm.. most animals on Earth use acetylcholine as a > neurotransmitter at least in some of their nerves... Yeah. But you could also block calcium channels. Or all esterase enzymes. Or all amine oxidases. Or... > Parasiting is highly specialized activity, and there's nothing > remotely human on Poseidon. I still hold with the biochemistry > differences.. But some things are gonna be generally consistent. Diphyllobothrium latum infects fish as well as humans. Now, we both know that fish and humans are _vastly_ different. But we both use folic acid for 1-carbon transfers. It's a handly little guy. So, if fish and humans, or mosquitos and humans, or cows and humans, or...anyway, if two widely different terran species are gonna get infected by the same parasite, then I don't really have that much of a problem imagining a parsite that can infect one oxygen-burning sugar eater infecting another proteinaceous critter. > I agree, although the term "aggressive ecology" rubs me the wrong way.. > how can any ecology be more savage than another? Same rules of "survival > of the fittest".. But some might be more fit than others. Imaging what would eat an aligator. More savage? More fit? Same rules. Or what lives off tiger sharks? Or thinks timber wolves are crunchy and good with peanut butter. I agree that the rules are the same, but it's mostly a matter of scale. Now, on review of my above comments, as often happens, they could be construed as being relatively pedantic, and maybe a little mean spirited. They're not meant that way. I just wanted to point out that we didn't pull this stuff out of the air. I'm sincerely thrilled that someone would take the time to pay that much attention to our stuff. -Jason Werner Biohazard Games ------------------------------------------------ I lacked the courage to investigate the weaknesses of the wicked, because I discovered they are the same as the weaknesses of the saintly. - Wm. of Baskerville -------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: stevie [Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:18 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology >By the way, has anything been said about photosynthesis pigments >on >Poseidon? Straightforward green chlorophyll-a? Possibly >red/brown-yellow pigments for things growing in deeper water? Or >something >weirder? Maybe the chlorophyll analog is somewhat more blue than the chlorophyll on Earth, since Lambda Serpentis is a G0 and has a shorter peak wavelength than the 468nm here (chlorophyll is optimized to make most efficient use of incoming sunlight). Ciao, Stephan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: stevie [Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:33 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - [Blue Planet] - Transbeings >Yeah...don't have much experience with health insurance in the United States, do >you? Actually, based on your domain name, I wouldn't expect you to. Count >yourself among the fortunate. Yep. From what you've said, I probably am. Here, Health Insurance (usually) costs a monthly fee of around $240, half of which is paid by the employer. If you have no work, it gets cheaper and is in fact (at least in part) sponsored by the social authorities. This is similar if you are in pension or a student (I, for example are working on my PhD. now, which makes me technically a student - I pay about $54/month for complete health insurance). Of course, you can effect an insurance privately (more expensive but often better health support) but this is not really mandatory. Actually this was what I had in mind when I did this posting. As you can imagine, good health care with these monthly fees is not a very good business, so it would be cheaper if the people didn't get sick in the first place. Ciao, Stephan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Robert P. Stefko [rpsst16@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 9:21 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology I wouldn't find it at all unthinkable that Poseidon life uses either more or less amino acids. If less, then deficiency might be common. If more...dunno really. Any biochemists on the list? Is ingesting strange amino acids likely to cause problems? Illness and vomiting, or so I've heard. You can also literally starve to death on a full stomach if the food isn't chemically compatible. This isn't so much a problem for humans, since they'd know to vary their diet, but feral animals wouldn't know any better. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:10 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Re: Hybrids, tech, ecology >Maybe the chlorophyll analog is somewhat more blue than the chlorophyll on >Earth, since Lambda Serpentis is a G0 and has a shorter peak wavelength than >the 468nm here (chlorophyll is optimized to make most efficient use of >incoming sunlight). Blue chlorophyll for a blue planet. I like it. BTW, while there has been mention of the marine iguana thriving on Poseidon, what Earth plants thrive (or at least can grow) on Poseidon? Kai Poh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:19 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: [BLUE PLANET] - Longevity I'm in the process of reading Holy Fire right now (fascinating book), and I'd say it's a more complicated issue than that. I'll post a review as soon as I'm done on it. I'm a bit of a Sterling fan, although I haven't read all of his output yet. I'd say most of Bruce Sterling's SF relates quite well to BP. In fact, although this issue has been raised before, I really like to hear about SF that relates well to BP, and particularly why. A long time ago, I'd read that Carol Severance's Reef Song was a major influence on BP, but I've yet to find it in used bookstores. Bother. Worse, I once got Carol Severance and Joan Sloczewski (A Door Into Ocean) mixed up in my head and credited Sloczewski with influencing BP, by mistake. At an SF convention. Speaking to Sloczewski. :( Kai Poh > I agree completely. People with hundreds of years under their belts >would most likely be severely conservative elements within society and might >even come to hate/fear all the 'young' people, and vice versa. Sounds like a >good book by the way, I'll have to pick it up > >- Kevin C. Carpenter > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:39 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - FluMech Tech wish list Okay, here's a few things that I'd like to see in FluMech. Think of it as my letter to Santa. :) BALES OF COCAINE... More than just combat drugs. Beauty drugs. Mnemonics (memory drugs). Various types of metabolic drugs for physical tasks like zero-G manuvering, bare-skin diving, arctic survival etc. ONCE A THIEF... Security systems. Examples of identity verification in 2199. Examples on how to sneak past such security systems. More stealth gear. Surveillance tech like directional mikes. Personal ECM like white noise generators. THE GREAT OUTDOORS! More cool survival gear (the best thing about the original BP equipment section, apart from the biomods), especially the little gadgets like compact breather masks, multi-purpose flares (any color smoke, or a bright magnesium-like blaze, depending on what you program to do first) and gloves loaded with gizmos. "Smart" climbing gear, EVA "broomsticks," and other specialized tools for getting about in the strangest environments. LET GO OF HER, YOU BITCH! Combat hardsuits! Utility hardframes (open-framed commercial hardsuits for construction or loading, like the power loader in Aliens). More cetacean power shell variants. CRY HAVOC... Cool weaponry, of course! Explosives with stats and better damage rules so that characters with Demolitions can actually use their skill. Combat drones. Oversized guns that only big hybrids and Shock Troopers can fire and still remain standing. And whatever else your fevered minds can come up with. Kai Poh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message. From: Tun Kai Poh [t_poh@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:47 PM To: blue_planet@MPGN.COM Subject: [BLUE PLANET] - More Slang Sawari - Synonymous to "Judas" for some natives. Originated with the Storm Widow myth. Jessie Doe, Jessica Doe - Unidentified female corpse, like "Jane Doe." The most common name for girls born on Poseidon is "Jessica," after Jessica DeMarco, the first human born on the planet. The naming tradition started with natives but eventually spread to newcomer colonists. Kai Poh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe blue_planet' as the body of the message.